Evidence of meeting #114 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Although Mr. Cooper is trying to amend the motion in order to talk about foreign interference, all he's really doing is he's attempting to amend the motion's timing. This doesn't give him carte blanche to start talking about foreign interference. He can talk about the timing of it. He can filibuster in that regard to prevent it, but I don't think he's on topic by talking about the content of another report or another study, which is what he's trying to do.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Mr. Chair, on the same point of order, the objective purpose of the subamendment that I have put forward to the motion is to prioritize this committee's study on foreign interference. The basis of that prioritization is the findings of Madam Justice Hogue's report, which raises the need for parliamentary oversight and accountability. The—
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
12:15 p.m.
An hon. member
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Colleagues, time out.
Mr. Cooper, if we can get you to wrap up on the point of order, then the floor will be yours again, of course, in relation to the subamendment that you have moved.
I want to remind colleagues of two things. One, of course, is the respectful dialogue that we expect between one another. The other one is in relation to the hard work the interpreters have to do. It's very difficult for them to keep track of conversations on both sides of the table.
Mr. Cooper, just so I understand, are we done on your point of order to the point of order?
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
I just want to be clear. The point of order is concluded, and Mr. Cooper is resuming debate in relation to the subamendment that he has moved.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Right.
It's about prioritization. The Liberals and the New Democrats seem to prioritize themselves. The Conservatives want to prioritize both protecting our democracy from Beijing's interference and seeing that Canadians get the answers they deserve about some of the very, very troubling findings contained in Madam Justice Hogue's first report.
I'll go back to the Prime Minister's involvement and how he responded to the information that CSIS passed on to his top officials and that in turn was passed on to him about Beijing's interference in the Don Valley North nomination. I know that's something the Liberals no longer like to talk about, of course because of the Prime Minister's culpability. They were very interested in talking about that member a year ago, but not so much anymore. We saw an effort just moments ago by Mr. Gerretsen to try to shut me down from talking about the Prime Minister's actions in the Don Valley North Liberal nomination.
Madam Justice Hogue found not only that the Prime Minister made his decision to ignore the CSIS report and intelligence about the member, but also that it had an impact on the overall election in Don Valley North. In fact, as Madam Justice Hogue said, the Prime Minister's decision “affected who was elected to Parliament” in Don Valley North. The Prime Minister turned a blind eye to Beijing's efforts to assist someone win the Liberal nomination, and his decision to allow that individual to continue to stand as a Liberal candidate resulted in someone who happened to be Beijing's preferred candidate, someone who Beijing thought would advance their interests in Ottawa, getting elected to the House of Commons. That's on Justin Trudeau.
As bad as all of that is, speaking to the need for why we need to prioritize our study on foreign interference, it was also recently reported in The Globe and Mail, based upon a senior national security source, that the same Liberal candidate, the current member for Don Valley North, was tipped off that he was being monitored by CSIS.
In short, the contents of the classified CSIS briefing that was provided to three top Liberals, all within the Prime Minister's inner circle.... Jeremy Broadhurst and the Prime Minister were informed of the contents of that briefing. Someone, one of those five Liberals, likely leaked that classified information that resulted in the member for Don Valley North being tipped off that he was being monitored by CSIS.
This is a very, very serious matter. The report in The Globe and Mail contains very serious allegations that the member was notified and tipped off. If that is true, and there's every reason to believe it is true, then one of those top Liberals would have leaked that classified information. In doing so, the leaker broke the law. They violated multiple sections of the Security of Information Act. They could face up to 14 years behind bars for a contravention of multiple sections of the Security of Information Act. That's about as serious as it gets.
They not only violated the Security of Information Act, but also betrayed their oath of secrecy, undermined an active intelligence operation looking into Beijing's interference and, perhaps most concerning, compromised CSIS's sources and methods, which could have potentially put a person's safety at risk. That is the consequence. That is the gravity of the crime that someone in the Prime Minister's inner circle committed, if the report in The Globe and Mail is accepted.
If the Prime Minister or his inner circle wants to say the story is false, then they can come out and say so. They can testify before this committee. When there's a credible report in The Globe and Mail from a top national security source that someone in the Prime Minister's inner circle leaked classified information, potentially the Prime Minister himself, that compromised an ongoing intelligence operation and compromised CSIS's sources and methods, and they committed an offence that is punishable by up to 14 years behind bars, this committee, which is studying foreign interference, ought to have some hearings to get to the bottom of exactly what happened with respect to that alleged leak.
On and on it goes. Madam Justice Hogue's report and some of the damning findings in it are not limited to what happened in Don Valley North. We know that when reports of Beijing's interference came to light, the Prime Minister repeatedly downplayed the extent of Beijing's interference. He falsely stated that in “every single constituency election...election integrity held, and it was free and fair.” Those were the words of the Prime Minister.
Madam Justice Hogue concluded otherwise. She found that there were “strong indicators”—those are her words—that Beijing interfered in the Steveston—Richmond East riding to work against the then sitting member of Parliament, Mr. Kenny Chiu, and to help elect the Liberal candidate, who is now the current member for Steveston—Richmond East. She concluded not only that there were strong indicators that Beijing interfered in Steveston—Richmond East to work against Kenny Chiu and help the Liberals, but also that there was a “reasonable possibility” that this interference resulted in the defeat of Mr. Chiu and in the election of the Liberal candidate, the now member for Steveston—Richmond East.
So much for the Prime Minister's claim that for every single constituency election, election integrity held and that it was free and fair. That's simply not the case. Election integrity held in terms of the overall result, yes, but election integrity did not necessarily hold in every single constituency election. It is evidence that there was serious interference that could have tipped the scales in certain ridings, and that is consistent with the reports that the Liberals spent so much time last spring and last fall dismissing.
When there were reports that Beijing had targeted several ridings for the purpose of defeating Conservative candidates and electing Liberals, the Liberal response was that it was no big deal, it really didn't happen and there was nothing significant, because, as the Prime Minister said, election integrity in every single riding held. Well, that's not true. Again, I emphasize that Beijing's interference did not impact the overall election result, but I think most Canadians would be concerned. I'm certainly concerned.
If the result in even one riding was impacted by Beijing's interference or the interference of any foreign state, it would be unacceptable. That undermines the integrity of our elections and it needs to be addressed. Steps must be taken to ensure that such interference doesn't take place and that those who were involved and complicit in such interference are held accountable.
The scope of Beijing interference in Steveston—Richmond East consisted of a disinformation campaign that very much targeted Kenny Chiu. Not surprisingly, given that it was interference from Beijing, it targeted Chinese Canadian voters. The Chinese Canadian diaspora in Steveston—Richmond East comprises a significant component of the population of the electors in that suburban Vancouver riding.
As concerning as it is that there was interference in Steveston—Richmond East, where there was a reasonable possibility that such interference resulted in the defeat of Mr. Chiu and the election of the current Liberal member, it's not as though the Prime Minister, the Liberal Party and the Liberal candidate were bystanders in this interference. They, in fact, were participants in Beijing's interference.
Last week, I sat in on an ethics committee meeting when it heard evidence from Mr. Chiu that the Liberal Party and the Liberal candidate amplified Beijing's disinformation. The Liberal Party created various disinformation products that were then disseminated throughout the Steveston—Richmond East riding. They had the effect, as intended, of amplifying Beijing's disinformation. What was Beijing's disinformation? One aspect of the disinformation was to claim that a private member's bill that Kenny Chiu introduced to establish a foreign influence registry would somehow target Chinese Canadians. That was a complete falsehood.
We have a bill now—what a surprise, just after the report of Madam Justice Hogue—from the Liberals, who have introduced legislation to finally establish a foreign influence registry. I think it's been well recognized by experts on matters of national security that a foreign influence registry is the bare minimum of what should be done to counter foreign interference. Other countries, like the United Kingdom, have passed foreign influence registries. Australia passed a foreign influence registry in 2018. The United States has had a foreign influence registry since the 1930s, I believe, since 1936 or 1938.
In the 2021 election, Justin Trudeau and the Liberals not only opposed a foreign influence registry but were amplifying Beijing's disinformation to target a Chinese Canadian member of Parliament, someone who came from Hong Kong, Kenny Chiu. He came to Canada to build a better life for himself and his country and rose to serve in the House of Commons. Liberals amplified disinformation to target him, to sow confusion within the Chinese diaspora community and to create fear, all very calculated to cause Kenny Chiu maximum political damage and to win on the basis of what amounts to lies—
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Mr. Cooper, I'm going to pause you for a moment.
Mrs. Romanado, go ahead on a point of order.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC
Under Standing Order 18, attacking the integrity of a member is not permitted, and he's accusing members of the Liberal Party, me included, of spreading lies. I ask him to withdraw that statement. I have never ever sent out disinformation, and I take great offence with being accused of doing so. I ask the member to please withdraw that statement.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Colleagues, I'm new to the chair today. I know that you've known each other for a long time, but please don't begin your responses until I've granted the floor. It just helps me to maintain control and order.
Go ahead, Mr. Cooper, in response to Mrs. Romanado.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
In response, it appears that Madam Romanado was not listening carefully to my submission, because I never made such an accusation with respect to her. I merely repeated the testimony of Kenny Chiu that the Liberal Party in the riding of Steveston—Richmond East amplified Beijing's information and created disinformation products. Disinformation amounts to untruthful, deliberate misinformation that amounts to spreading falsehoods and lies and doing so deliberately. That is the evidence of Mr. Chiu at committee. That is what I repeated.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
That concludes your response to the point of order.
Mrs. Romanado, are you satisfied with that response or do you want to, on another point of order, speak to this?
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC
I do not want to speak further to this. However, I would ask my colleagues to be judicious. That is the whole point of the study that I put forward.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Thank you, Mrs. Romanado.
Mr. Cooper, you may resume debate on your subamendment.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Going back to my subamendment, and with respect to the last comment made by Madam Romanado, it's very nice and well to say that we should be so very polite. Tell that to Kenny Chiu.
Have you talked to him lately? I did, last week—
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Mr. Cooper, I'm sorry to cut you off. Just as a reminder, things should come through the chair. Thank you.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair. You are correct in that regard.
I would submit to members that they should perhaps talk to Kenny Chiu, because he was subjected to a disinformation campaign by a hostile foreign state—which was amplified by the Liberal Party for electoral gain—that attacked him on a personal basis as a Chinese Canadian. They did irreparable damage to his reputation in his community, and as Madam Justice Hogue indicated, there is a “reasonable possibility”—her words, not mine—that that's why Kenny Chiu is no longer a member of Parliament. Quite frankly, in the face of that, I think so-called politeness takes a backseat to addressing this very serious interference and the involvement of the Liberal Party in amplifying and contributing to Beijing's disinformation in the riding of Steveston—Richmond East.
As we heard during the study on foreign interference, which this committee is still seized with, Justin Trudeau set up the critical election incident protocol, and that critical election incident protocol was established supposedly to counter foreign interference in our elections. Pursuant to that protocol, an election panel is hand-picked by Justin Trudeau. That election panel was entrusted with making decisions around informing political parties and candidates when there is evidence that they are the subject of disinformation, misinformation or interference by foreign state actors and their agents. They were to warn the Canadian public of such interference where such interference may impact a result or if there is a risk of impacting a result.
The election panel had information about the disinformation campaign going on in Steveston—Richmond East and a number of other ridings. The election panel, appointed by Justin Trudeau, did nothing about it. They sat on it. They kept Kenny Chiu and the voters in Steveston—Richmond East in the dark, as the voters of that riding were being bombarded with Beijing's disinformation, which was being amplified by Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party in the riding of Steveston—Richmond East.
That underscores the fact that the limited measures that had been put in place by Justin Trudeau's government to counter foreign interference did not hold. They did not work. What happened in Steveston—Richmond East and how Justin Trudeau's election panel responded—by not responding, by not doing anything about it—should not have happened. We need to get answers about why that happened, especially in light of the conclusions, the findings, of a superior court judge, Justice Hogue, who found that there were strong indicators of interference that resulted in a reasonable possibility of an impact on the result.
I see that certain members have dismissed Madam Justice Hogue's finding of a reasonable possibility. Given those findings, I think we need to have a better understanding of why the election panel set up by Justin Trudeau kept Kenny Chiu in the dark and kept the voters of Steveston—Richmond East in the dark. I would further observe, based on what came out at the public inquiry, that while Kenny Chiu was kept in the dark, when there was what seemed to be disinformation in an article on Facebook concerning Justin Trudeau, Justin Trudeau's department, the PCO, went to Facebook and demanded that it take that article down because it might have electoral consequences. That was the basis upon which the PCO went to Facebook.
Maybe the PCO was right in those circumstances to have requested that the article be taken down about Justin Trudeau. I don't know, but it did that. Contrast that with how disinformation was dealt with in the case of Kenny Chiu. There was bombardment of disinformation and nothing. They just completely turned a blind eye to it. When one article is critical of the Prime Minister but perhaps contains disinformation, the PCO, the Prime Minister's department, is all over it, but when it comes to Kenny Chiu, Justin Trudeau's election panel can't be bothered.
That is also what we heard from Erin O'Toole when he came before the committee, as well as the Conservative representatives who were on the SITE task force and were supposed to be receiving briefings about interference targeted at parties and the election more broadly. Despite the fact that Beijing had targeted certain Conservative candidates to work to defeat them and elect Liberals, Erin O'Toole and his representatives on the SITE task force were not briefed.
This speaks to a double standard of sorts. When there's any kind of disinformation negatively impacting Justin Trudeau, every effort is made to shine a light on it, shut it down and remove it from social media. However, by contrast, when it comes to Erin O'Toole and certain Conservative candidates—when it came to Kenny Chiu—nothing is done. Not only was nothing done, but the Liberal Party actually amplified the disinformation and created its own disinformation products to further amplify that disinformation, again for electoral gain.
In that regard, the Liberal Party was not just a bystander to Beijing's interference. It's not just that it turned a blind eye to Beijing's interference—as bad as that is. It was, in some respects, complicit and involved in Beijing's interference, which is scandalous. It is un-Canadian. It demonstrates that this Prime Minister, frankly, just isn't up to the job. He's not fit for the office that he holds.
I think it is important that when we reflect upon some of those findings of Madam Justice Hogue...and there are many, many more. It is a substantial report. I know one member of the committee on the Liberal side dismissed the report when Mr. Duncan was speaking, as if to say there's nothing there. Well, there's a lot in this report, and it doesn't look very good for Justin Trudeau. That's for sure.
It's no wonder that the Liberals don't want to talk about the report. They don't want to have hearings on foreign interference. They would rather shut that study down entirely, if they could have their way. I certainly recognize that there is merit to the motion, like undertaking a study on the topic contained in the motion, but when it comes to a question of setting priorities, it is obvious that election interference has to take priority over the study being proposed in the main motion.
That is all that my subamendment to the motion would do. It would say that yes, we'll proceed with the study proposed by Madam Romanado, but it's not going to come at the cost, expense or priority of the election interference study. I think that's reasonable. I think it is consistent with what we are here to do as a committee, which is to work on behalf of Canadians. It's not to work on behalf of ourselves, yet the priority of some members seems to be that it's all about them. Forget about the attack on our democracy. Forget about Beijing's interference. Forget about the record of the Prime Minister in turning a blind eye to Beijing's interference. Forget about the complicity of Justin Trudeau in that interference. Forget about all of it. Of course they want to forget about it, because the Liberal Party has a very poor track record on this.
Back in the spring, there were reports and allegations—
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Mr. Cooper, I'm sorry, but I'll interrupt you for one moment.
I just want to be mindful of a couple of things. We are going to continue. We have the resources to continue until two o'clock.
In five minutes, Mr. Cooper, assuming you're still speaking, I am going to suspend so that we can take a health break. As a former school principal and teacher, I know the importance of letting people stretch their legs, get blood flowing, get some water, go to the washroom and reset their brains. I think that's very important for productivity and efficiency.
I will say that again. We are going to continue—if necessary, I should say—to two o'clock. In five minutes, Mr. Cooper, regardless of whether you're still speaking, we'll suspend for a health break for about five minutes. Should you still wish to have the floor after the suspension when we resume, of course the floor would be yours again.
Is that understood by everybody?
12:45 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal