Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 30th, 2024

[Sabreena Delhon]

One key cause is technology's influence on our democracy, particularly over the last decade. We've seen social media platforms develop content recommendation systems that favour divisive and harmful content, particularly that experienced by elected officials, journalists and others who occupy what we can call “professions of democracy.” They are getting attacked online, and we end up seeing that material far more than any of the positive stories about civic engagement in our local communities.

We've also seen a reduction in local journalism. Local newsrooms have been decimated over the last couple of years, and all of that is changing the proportion. A lot of what we're hearing about and that sense of tension and anxiety we're experiencing right now is because the harmful material is out of proportion with our norms and it's distorting our sense of our democratic values.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Lalonde, I'd like to know what you think about the effects of certain non-verbal behaviours. Earlier I cited the example of a contemptuous attitude, which is often discreetly displayed. I'm also thinking of the acts of looking at one's telephone while someone else is speaking, pretending not to listen, or simply not listening. In short, I'm talking about all those behaviours that we can observe every day, and I'd even say we can observe them right now.

Do you think they constitute harassment?

[Julie S. Lalonde]

Yes, absolutely.

Body language has an impact on intimidation, for example. It's not just a lack of respect that's conveyed by examples such as those just cited: using one's telephone when someone is speaking, talking to someone else nearby and not paying attention. People can also roll their eyes or cross their arms as they look at someone.

That doesn't amount to saying that we're weak. You have to recognize these things. We aren't stupid either. We know what intimidation is. Some people want to make a good impression by insisting they said nothing. However, it's obvious they did something: They wanted to communicate something by being disrespectful or exhibiting impatience, for example.

We haven't come here to tell people they shouldn't move their arms. I'm a francophone, so I obviously speak with my hands. Let's be realistic. We are adults, and we have to be realistic. When someone shows a lack of respect, we know what that is. However, we don't have the courage to put our foot down and say that's enough. Until we manage to do that, nothing will change and we'll keep going round in circles. I honestly think we don't have the courage to actually finish this discussion.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I hope that you can bring us some courage and that the message is ultimately heard.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Ms. Lalonde and Ms. Gaudreau.

Ms. Mathyssen, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of the witnesses for joining us on this important study.

We talk a lot about the rules and tools that we need to implement, which are important. I think that's very clear. But I'm also frustrated in that it seems fairly reactive. I would like to talk about the proactive.

I don't know, but I've certainly worried about whether it's just a matter of peer pressure. There were conversations earlier with Ms. Damoff about that bystander mentality. Could you both expand on what else we as members of Parliament have to do beyond that to raise the level? It's our own behaviour, but what about beyond that as well?

[Julie S. Lalonde]

Certainly. I would say that bystander intervention training needs to be mandatory. It needs to be across the board. I work with a program where I teach bystander intervention to children aged three to 10. It's a life skill. It's like administering CPR. It's like naloxone and a life skill if you see someone in distress.

I want to reference something that was said earlier this morning. People are not doing well. If you take public transit, you can tell that people are not doing well. If you wait in a drive-through that takes too long, people are popping off at a rate that we've never seen. People are not well. Bystander intervention skills are life skills that we need to make standard across the board, but certainly in the House of Commons amongst MPs, amongst members, amongst staffers and amongst interns. That is something that is, by definition, culture change. It's not putting the onus on the person who's been targeted to be the only one to raise it. It's saying, “I was there. I saw it. I'm going to say something. I'm going to set partisanship aside and say that ultimately we all benefit by putting a stop to this.”

I would also say, although it feels reactive, that to return to the point made earlier by Ms. Rempel Garner, we do need to also look at how we even define harassment in terms of the Criminal Code. Changing that is an opportunity for public education. Stalking has only been illegal in Canada since 1993. Until I started an organization in January, there was not a single organization in Canada's history focused on stalking.

There's nobody to talk about what this looks like and to help us get into the weeds. This is an opportunity that you have here. By changing that legislation, yes, it's responding, but you're raising awareness on this. We're not talking about people being annoying on the Internet. We're talking about people threatening our lives and impeding our ability to do our jobs. That public education piece is, by definition, prevention as well. Bystander and redefining criminal harassment are the most important, in my view.

[Sabreena Delhon]

This is a self-regulating culture, so this is a time where there's pressure to be reactive, move really quickly, just be in the moment and be short-sighted. But in a self-regulating environment, you can take a minute, take a pause and really think deeply about what kind of culture you want. In this moment of democratic backsliding, Canada has a leadership opportunity here. We can really step up on the world stage and set some new norms. The stakes are pretty high.

From our exit interviews, we hear really mundane and straightforward recommendations of what would make a difference. Start as you mean to go on. Put that culture training and piece into the onboarding process. Set a code of conduct and norms at that spot. Then pair new MPs with ones who are more experienced. Maintain that non-partisan opportunity and potential throughout.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I do believe our caucus used to do that, but it was one of the many things that were lost during COVID and afterwards. It's an important point.

I want to talk about what Ms. Gaudreau was getting at a bit, but I want to explore it more. We heard from the two witnesses before, the two MPs, of extreme examples of harassment, of what it leads to, and about that verbal violence that was heard.

However, there are also microaggressions. Can you both talk about what you've seen with those, and give examples of those and how we could better deal with them?

[Sabreena Delhon]

Sure. I can speak to that.

In our exit interviews, we talked to people who aren't in the job anymore, so they could be very open and reflective about what they experienced. Their comment was often, “Wow, I had all this to say, and nobody ever asked me these questions before”. Then they were able to unpack all the ways in which they felt slighted, undermined or attacked in varying ways of severity.

It's often women who really downplay the extent of the abuse and the incivility they encountered. As a result, there's a lot of compartmentalization that happens. This affects male colleagues as well because they're bearing witness to this and experiencing it with colleagues they care about.

If we think about this from a sustainability perspective, at the end of the political career, a lot of doors can be closed. That healing and recovering from the compartmentalization that's necessary to perform this job needs to be addressed. That's a serious mental health and wellness issue. It's a public good issue. How are we taking care of our public servants after they've completed their service to us? There's a duty of care element to this as well, then.

What we're talking about is not just what happens on the job. It's hard on the campaign trail, on the digital campaign trail in particular, which can be very abusive and toxic. There is very little training and very few supports available there. The job is hard. Then, post-job is also incredibly challenging. There's a lot of responsibility that we need to account for across that civic journey.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I did want to include that our job is hard. We've talked about the impacts on staff, and the supports around us within the institution—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Ms. Mathyssen, I'm sorry. Please be very quick on the final question.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

I, as a staffer, took your training on harassment. Is there anything else in terms of mandatory training that you think should be provided to staff who support us in that way for the institution?

[Julie S. Lalonde]

Yes, very quickly, I would say that there are lots of folks doing great bystander intervention work. We also know that if you don't do booster training six to eight months afterwards, people don't lose the skills, but do lose the confidence because they've spent six months being told to just shut up and stay quiet. It needs to be a continuous conversation so that folks don't lose that confidence.

There also needs to be some sort of trauma-informed training done with those who are on the front lines and who are being subjected to the abuse, not just on social media, but also on the phones and at the constituency offices so that those folks don't burn out and so that we keep them in the world of politics, which is where they want to be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Lalonde and Ms. Delhon, thank you very much for joining us today.

Colleagues, thank you very much for your patience and for a productive meeting.

Right before we adjourn, I believe everyone has received a copy of the budgetary numbers that we need to pass for both the cyber-hacking study as well as the one we are currently undertaking. I'm looking around the room to see that there is no objection to that budget.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Excellent. With that, colleagues, the budget is passed.

I hope you all have a wonderful weekend. We'll see you next week back here.

I adjourn this meeting