Evidence of meeting #132 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was date.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Daniel Rogers  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Rachel Pereira  Director, Electoral and Senatorial Policy Unit, Privy Council Office

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Welcome to the 132nd meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Welcome, Minister LeBlanc.

Welcome to the officials and others who are here today.

I'll give a very friendly reminder to those who may not appear in front of committee often to please respect the well-being and health of our interpreters and make sure that if your earpiece is not in use, you have placed it on the sticker in front of you.

Colleagues, we have two separate hours here. The first hour today will be on the minister's mandate, broadly speaking. The second hour will be more specific and will relate to Bill C-65, which we have been undertaking a study of, as you know.

We have a few witnesses with the minister today.

Welcome to Daniel Rogers, who is the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have deputy minister Tricia Geddes. Welcome to you.

From the Privy Council Office, we have Mala Khanna, deputy secretary to the cabinet, governance; and Allen Sutherland, assistant secretary to the cabinet, machinery of government and democratic institutions. Welcome.

Minister LeBlanc, you'll have the floor for five minutes to provide opening remarks, after which we will go into our regular line of questioning. Thank you for making yourself available.

11:05 a.m.

Beauséjour New Brunswick

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc LiberalMinister of Public Safety

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, colleagues, for the invitation.

I was, as you kindly noted, Mr. Chair, a couple of minutes late. I had a discussion with some people in Montreal last evening around an issue that's important to all of us—gun control. I came back from Montreal this morning, and as some of our colleagues from that great city will know, the traffic sometimes is relentless. I apologize, but I arrived directly from Montreal, Mr. Chair.

I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me to talk about the mandate. Thank you for introducing my colleagues. Al Sutherland, I think, is a frequent flyer before this committee and does great work on democratic institutions, as does our deputy secretary, Mala Khanna.

For the new deputy minister of public safety and the new director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, Trish and Dan, it is their first time to be with me before a committee. They've been in the important functions in the jobs they have now but for a week or 10 days.

Trish and Dan, thank you for joining us.

Democracies around the world are being tested. In this turbulent context, the fact remains that Canadians have many reasons to be proud of our democracy and the integrity of our electoral system.

Of course, democracy requires our attention every day, not just at election time. We must always ensure its health and vitality, because our democratic institutions and traditions are the very foundation of our values; they reflect who we are as Canadians. As elected officials, we have a responsibility to look after our democratic institutions and traditions and to keep them healthy, of course.

We won't always agree on how to do that, but our democratic institutions and traditions exist precisely to help us overcome those differences and to keep the public interest at the forefront.

Over the course of the next two hours, I look forward to discussing, through that frame, what we can do together to keep our democracy strong. Over the last number of years, our government has put in place a range of measures to protect democratic institutions and, in particular, address the evolving and growing threat of foreign interference. In advance of the 2019 election, as colleagues know, we established the plan to protect Canada's democracy, bringing together all agencies and departments that have a role in ensuring our elections are secure, fair and transparent. To ensure our measures remain adaptable in the face of new and evolving threats, the plan was updated ahead of the 2021 federal election. We're going through that very exercise again ahead of the next federal election.

All of this work is being coordinated by a group at Privy Council Office known as the protecting democracy unit, which our government established in 2023 to ensure there is a central coordinating body for all things related to threats to our elections. We've also put in place the security and intelligence threats to elections, SITE, task force. You've heard about these groups, I'm sure, in many of your proceedings. They are composed of experts from CSIS, the Communications Security Establishment, the Department of Foreign Affairs, of course, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. This is the principal mechanism to monitor the threat from hostile state interference during elections and by-elections.

The SITE task force works closely with the members of the panel that governs the critical election incident public protocol. In the event of a threat to the integrity of the general election, the protocol lays out how political parties and all Canadians are informed of that threat. The panel is chaired by Canada's most senior public servant, the Clerk of the Privy Council, and is composed of senior public servants who bring experience in national security, foreign affairs and democratic governance.

Taken together, these measures have significantly strengthened our ability to address threats to our democracy, but we must always ask ourselves what more we could do. That's why, in September 2023, as our colleagues are well aware, the government announced the launch of the public inquiry into foreign interference in electoral processes and federal democratic institutions. The establishment of this commission, chaired by Justice Hogue, followed extensive consultations with all recognized parties in the House of Commons. All political parties agreed on the terms of reference and the appointment of Justice Hogue. For its part, the government has ensured that the commission has unprecedented access to classified information and cabinet confidences. You will recall the extraordinary discussion we had in June on this very topic. As members of this committee are well aware, the commission submitted an interim report on May 3, 2024, with the final report expected on December 31, 2024. We look forward to reviewing the commissioner's final report and recommendations to better protect federal democratic processes from foreign interference.

During the second half of my appearance today, I'm looking forward to discussing Bill C-65, which proposes amendments to the Canada Elections Act to further remove barriers to voting, encourage voter participation, protect personal information and, of course, strengthen electoral safeguards against foreign interference.

Once again, Mr. Chair, thank you to you and your colleagues for this invitation. You can't imagine how much I look forward to the next two hours.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you.

I can imagine, Mr. Minister.

Thank you, again, for being here.

Mr. Cooper, the floor is yours for six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and officials.

Minister, we learned at the public inquiry on foreign interference that your cabinet colleague Bill Blair, while serving in your current role as Minister of Public Safety, sat on a CSIS warrant for 54 days. National security officials testified at the inquiry that such a warrant is typically signed off by the minister in only a handful of days. Suspiciously, the target of the warrant was none other than a former Ontario Liberal cabinet minister, and a key organizer and fundraiser for Justin Trudeau in the GTA.

Why did it take 54 days to sign the warrant?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Through you, Mr. Chair, that's an interesting question, Mr. Cooper. I was asked a similar question at the public inquiry. I was not the Minister of Public Safety. I have not seen that warrant. I can't speak to the circumstances around that warrant at all.

In fact, I was told by CSIS—and the director is here—that I'm not even allowed to discuss the existence of a particular warrant, although that one, as you know, is already in the public domain. I'm not in a position to address any of the circumstances around that particular warrant. I wasn't involved at all.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, will you launch a departmental review into what happened in this 54-day delay?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

I look forward to hearing Justice Hogue's conclusions with respect to this issue. I think the bureaucratic term is that it was “well ventilated” at the public inquiry. The judge may have some—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, aren't you concerned that there was this 54-day delay in your department, slow-walking for 54 days a national security investigation?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

I have a lot of confidence in the work done by CSIS and their national security partners. I regularly have briefings on warrants that I'm asked to sign—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

CSIS went to the minister's chief of staff after no action was taken on day 13. After the minister's chief of staff was briefed, the minister continued to sit on that warrant all the way to 54 days. Isn't the real reason you're unwilling to undertake a departmental review that you know Bill Blair and his chief of staff put the partisan interests of the Liberal Party ahead of national security? Isn't that why you're so disinterested?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Absolutely not, Mr. Cooper. You can make up a series of suppositions and allegations here. You have—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Why not undertake a review?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Again, Mr. Cooper, these are amongst the most sensitive intelligence instruments that CSIS and the public safety department have. I've never heard of an internal departmental review with respect to a specific warrant.

The department provides me advice with respect to every warrant that I'm asked to sign, and again, I've taken note, because I have no information myself—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

It's really quite—

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, Mr. Cooper asked a question.

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

I have a point of order.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Maybe the member from Matlock would allow me to answer the question.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Minister, I have a couple of things happening here.

Here's what I've got. I've got some interrupting, and I'm going to ask Mr. Cooper to afford the minister the opportunity to finish. I've got the minister taking an opportunity to himself provide some remarks, and then I've got a point of order from Mr. Turnbull, which I presume is in relation to what I've just said.

If that's the case, Mr. Turnbull, perhaps, we can just continue, unless you feel the need to speak to this more specifically.

All right.

I paused the clock.

Minister, I'm going to turn the floor back over to you. I'm not even going to start the clock again for just a few seconds, to be fair here, to allow you to answer Mr. Cooper's question. There are two minutes and 40 seconds remaining once I start the clock.

Minister, the floor is yours.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, thank you.

As I said, I have no personal insight into that particular warrant. I've taken note of public comments where Mr. Blair indicated that he signed that very quickly when he himself became aware of that warrant.

I think that Director Vigneault, the former director of CSIS, also noted—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, Minister, Minister—

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. Is there a problem on your left?

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Minister, I'll handle the ongoings. I'm going to permit you about five—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Mr. Chair, with the greatest respect, it's my time—

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

First of all, Mr. Cooper, you don't have the floor. Second of all, I've paused the clock.

Minister, in about 10 seconds, can you wrap that up, please? Then I'm going to start the clock again to be fair to Mr. Cooper and allow him the opportunity to continue with his line of questioning.

Go ahead, Minister.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, thank you.

I would just draw the committee's attention and Mr. Cooper's attention to public comments that I had noted from former director Vigneault about his level of comfort in terms of the time that this has taken, but my only insight into that are public comments I've seen. We look forward, of course, to Justice Hogue addressing this issue, should she decide to do so.