Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, through you, I thank Ms. Michaud for her question.

If congratulations are on the agenda, and you give me 30 seconds, allow me to congratulate Mr. Terry Duguid in person for the news I read about him on Radio‑Canada’s website this week.

I am a very happy for you, Mr. Duguid.

Ms. Michaud, you raised a very important question. In fact, it has been a very important challenge. Everyone is aware of the Roxham Road saga. I’ve spoken several times with my counterparts within Quebec’s government.

The good news, as you said, is that we amended the agreement to close what was a worrisome loophole. I recognize, as you described, the terms of the agreement pertaining to the issue of the 14 days.

There are two things. First, I do not think we need to picture the arrival of hundreds of thousands of people before it becomes a threat. It is definitely under discussion.

Then, once we are certain—as I am—that border services and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or RCMP, are completely ready, it must be reassuring for Canadians. When it comes to operational plans, I myself received briefings from border services and the RCMP; I fully trust them on that level.

We will continue to work with Mr. Biden’s administration which, as you know, will be in place until January. When the new administration takes the reins, we will do what is necessary to work with it.

I was reassured by the plans presented to me by border services and the RCMP. However, we are also on alert and on task. We will continue to share intelligence with our American partners, who are very up to date on the challenges with their southwestern borders.

When I talked with the United States Secretary of Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas, he said he was satisfied with the co‑operation between Canadian authorities and their American counterparts at their northern border. Nevertheless, I do not underestimate the importance of being visible and of reassuring both Americans and Canadians by telling them that we are ready.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

If I may, Minister, I remind you that staff at the border was in fact reduced over the last year. At the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, it is not unheard of for border officers or the border officers’ union to come and tell us that they don’t have enough staff. We know that the Canada-U.S. border is extremely long. Roxham Road was closed, yes, but people can still wander just about everywhere along the border.

To reassure Canadians, can you give us details about this famous plan from the RCMP or Canada Border Services Agency? Refugee defence groups and lawyers are already getting photos of backpacks of people in the United States who are ready to cross over into Canada. That is a reality we will be facing soon. I get the impression it’s being discussed now, if it is not already. The plan must be solid for us to monitor that border. Premier Legault said he does not trust the federal government when it comes to protecting the border. He said he intends to deploy staff there himself.

What is your response to that? What do you have to say to the provinces?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Minister, you have 20 seconds.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

It is an interesting discussion.

Mr. Legault often reminds us that there are federal jurisdictions and provincial jurisdictions. I’m surprised he wants to send Sûreté du Québec officers to the border, an entirely federal responsibility, which we are completely ready to handle.

As you know full well, Ms. Michaud, when it comes to our areas of jurisdiction, we take them very seriously. We are ready and I have full confidence in the plans. The RCMP and our public safety partners will always share their plans with their partners in Quebec. The Sûreté du Québec is a key partner.

I continue to fully trust our ability to deal with every eventuality.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you.

Ms. Barron, welcome back to PROC. The floor is yours for six minutes.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much, and welcome to the minister. I'm happy to be here.

Minister, as I'm sure you're aware, Ms. Lauren Chen appeared at the public safety committee recently. She did not answer the questions that were being posed to her around alleged collusion with Russia to deliberately spread disinformation as a social media influencer.

What assurances can you provide that disinformation originating from the U.S. is being intercepted and shut down?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I did not follow the details of the committee testimony, although journalists asked me about it.

The United States Attorney General called me when I was with some colleagues in Brampton looking at backscatter scanners. We were looking for stolen vehicles in containers at intermodal terminals. The U.S. Attorney General called me to thank Canada for the work that CSIS and the RCMP had done with their American counterparts on this really alarming case of disinformation and funds originating in Russia, as was reported publicly in a news conference of the U.S. Attorney General about the indictment and attempts to use Canadian corporate structures to funnel this money to promote disinformation and certain extremist views.

With your indulgence, Mr. Chair, perhaps the director of CSIS can answer specifically questions that Ms. Barron asked—

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Minister, with all due respect, could I get a written briefing with some more information? That would be helpful so I can continue on to my next question.

Minister, I think it's important, when we talk about strengthening our elections, that we understand where we came from in order to better prepare for how to move forward. Can you indulge me a little bit around what was often known as Harper's unfair elections act, specifically Bill C-23 from June 2014?

We know that this legislation was a direct attack on Elections Canada and the Chief Electoral Officer. Could you speak to the implications of that and how we are trying to move forward from that legislation?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I was a member of the House when the Harper government, with the current Leader of the Opposition as the minister responsible for democratic institutions, proudly introduced legislation that was rather bizarrely named. It pretended to make elections and voting, for example, more accessible. That was the Fair Elections Act. In fact, as shared by a number of academics and civil society members, it included a series of measures, such as around pieces of ID, to make voting harder to access. I have a largely rural riding in New Brunswick. People show up to vote with the card they get in the mail. Everybody at that polling station knows a person is called Mr. So-and-So and where they live, but there were specific requirements around photo ID. In New Brunswick, for example, you don't have a photo on your provincial health card as you do in other provinces.

It was a series of things designed, in our view, to suppress the vote. We were happy that Parliament corrected many of those measures in the “unfair elections act”. The bill we're going to talk about in the next half of this conversation, we think goes even further in strengthening our electoral system and making it accessible and resilient to foreign interference.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

I'm happy you brought up the former minister of democratic institutions at that time in 2014, who is now the leader of the Conservative Party.

I was hoping you could provide your thoughts on the implications of a party leader who wants to become prime minister but refuses to get vital information about national safety with a security clearance. I know you've spoken about this a bit already.

Can you drill down a bit further into the implications for Canada as a whole when we are looking at a potential prime minister who refuses to have the information necessary for Canadians to remain safe?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Ms. Barron, thank you for that question. It follows on our colleague Terry Duguid's question.

In my job as public safety minister, I regularly have updates from CSIS or the RCMP around particular threat vectors or hostile actors seeking to undermine Canada's economic or democratic security, or about some national security threat regarding violent extremist behaviour.

I think that, if you want to lead a political party, you have to get the appropriate security clearance—as your leader did—so that, when there's a need to know, CSIS officials can update you about potential threats to your caucus or candidates. This is information that, one assumes, somebody who wants to be prime minister would want to know. I can't speak to why the current Leader of the Opposition refuses to get that clearance. Others have surmised a whole series of things. He must know why he doesn't feel comfortable getting that clearance. I can't speak for him.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thanks very much, Ms. Barron. That's all the time we have.

Mr. Berthold, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here with us.

You said earlier that if you even revealed the existence of a warrant for someone that your office is dealing with, it could be considered illegal. Is that right?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I was told I did not have the right to discuss the existence of a warrant I was asked to sign off on. As you know, there is a process to follow before the Federal Court—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

The answer is that it is illegal.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I am not an expert on the law for intelligence services, but Mr. Rogers can provide you with some details, if you want.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you.

Isn’t the role of government and its security agencies to, in fact, protect democracy and MPs against any threat of foreign interference?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You are absolutely right. That is a responsibility we accept, as the first government to set up measures along those lines.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Who authorized the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, or CSIS, to give Michael Chong a defensive briefing, as per subsection 12.1 of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, you’re asking a very technical question. I will answer you, but I will ask the Canadian Security Intelligence Service director to add some details.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

So, you do not know.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I was answering your question, Mr. Berthold, when you interrupted me.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

You wanted to ask Mr. Rogers to answer my question.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That is not the case. I was going to answer you, and I was going to kindly suggest that the expert—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

One moment, Minister.

Ms. O’Connell already talked about this issue.

Minister, I will give the floor back to Mr. Berthold, but if he doesn’t give you the opportunity to answer his questions, I will allow you to finish your answer.