Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Monsieur Berthold, I'm going to very quickly entertain this.

Wait one second.

Colleagues, it's very unusual for the chair not to go right to a vote once it's been called. This is not something that I'm going to entertain, generally speaking, moving forward.

I'll turn the floor briefly to you, Monsieur Berthold. You will be the last speaker and then we're going to the vote.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Chair, you can't challenge the chair if it's not officially a ruling of the chair. You didn't make any decisions; you just said there was a list. Until you recognize Mr. Duncan, no decision will have been made by the chair.

We can't challenge the chair, otherwise we're going to challenge each of the notes you take, Mr. Chair. That's not how it works. A decision will have been made when you recognize Mr. Duncan. At that point, Mr. Turnbull can say that he was next on the list. At this point, all you have done is indicate the names that were on the list, but you have not made any decisions. These are notes that you made, not a ruling. You named the people who were on your list. Are they going to start challenging every single note you make?

You have not yet made a decision to recognize Mr. Duncan or Mr. Turnbull.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Mr. Berthold, here's what's going to happen. I'm going to take what you're suggesting at face value, but here is what I imagine is going to happen: Either way Mr. Cooper is about to get the floor again. I presume Mr. Turnbull is then going to raise his hand, and now that I've indicated what the speaking list is he's going to challenge it. Here's what's going to happen.

Mr. Cooper is going to get the floor and then we'll see where things go from there, or we will not come back to this particular point. However, seeing that the time is now after 12—although I am sure that this is exhilarating for our witnesses who are here and have done a fantastic job of not contributing to the discussion despite probably having some very interesting views—I'm going to thank our witnesses. I'm going to relieve them of their duties here because we do have a second panel if and when we get to that.

I want to thank Messieurs Dicaire, Bédard, Janse, McDonell, LeBlanc, and Aubé.

Gentlemen, I'm sorry that we were not able to get into a more substantive discussion with you around the table, but if anybody understands that things can happen in the context of a parliamentary sitting, it would be you folks. Thank you very much for your time.

Mr. Cooper, the floor is yours.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Here we have a situation where 19 parliamentarians, including members of Parliament and senators, were the target of a cyber-attack by the Beijing-directed, Beijing-controlled APT31. Those members of Parliament were kept in the dark for three years by this government.

This government knew about the APT31 attack when it happened in January 2021. Notwithstanding that, there were no efforts made to inform members of Parliament that they were the target of the Beijing regime, and there were no efforts to inform them so that they could take appropriate steps to protect themselves. Indeed, these members of Parliament and senators would have had no idea they were the target of the Beijing regime but for an indictment out of the Department of Justice in the U.S. It was only then that they became aware of the fact that they were the target, and that led to the finding of the Speaker of a prima facie question of privilege, which has now been referred to this committee.

I would note that while members of Parliament were kept in the dark, CSIS; the CSE; the Prime Minister's Office and the Privy Council Office, the Prime Minister's own department; and multiple departments within this government had received briefings about the APT31 attack. Very simply put, there was a complete breakdown in notifying MPs.

This is part of a pattern, because this has happened before. We know that this government was aware that sitting members of Parliament, including MP Michael Chong, were the target of the Beijing regime, yet he was kept in the dark, resulting in a finding of the Speaker of a prima facie question of privilege, which came before this committee and which we studied.

What we have is a government that has been less than transparent, has failed to provide transparency and sunlight and, frankly, has at times outright covered up and turned a blind eye to Beijing's interference.

Following what happened in the case of MP Chong, the Minister of Public Safety in May 2023 issued a directive requiring CSIS to brief MPs if they are the target of foreign interference. It is interesting that following the issuance of that order, there was a briefing of multiple government departments, including the Prime Minister's department, the PCO, about this APT31 attack.

Notwithstanding the order of the House, those departments were briefed, but the sitting members of Parliament continued to be left in the dark. That raises questions about the effectiveness of this order and whether this directive is in fact being followed. It doesn't appear to be something that is being followed by this government. It seems to be—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Mr. Turnbull, on a point of order.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Mr. Cooper talks about dwelling in the dark. That's what his Conservative leader is doing by not getting a security clearance. Can he maybe answer why his leader...?

We know that the Conservative leadership race included—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

—interference from the People's Republic of China. Why won't he get his security clearance?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

We're getting into debate there. I think you're a seasoned parliamentarian. Make sure that points of order are focused on legitimate points of order.

Mr. Cooper, the floor is yours.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much.

I'd be happy to address the point raised by Mr. Turnbull. To that end, the Leader of the Opposition has been very clear. He'll take the same brief that the Washington Post received, he'll take the same briefing that the Prime Minister has received, but what he will not do is get this clearance and then allow the Prime Minister to pick and choose which information is put before him, which may, in fact, be incomplete, which may not present the full picture, and then allow the Prime Minister to be an arbiter of whether he violated his oath of secrecy.

The Leader of the Opposition isn't going to play the Prime Minister's game. If the Prime Minister were serious, he would release the names of all of the MPs who have wittingly collaborated with the Beijing regime, but he won't do that because we know that they sit in his caucus.

We know that the Prime Minister covered up the fact that one of his candidates, the now member for Don Valley North, received the assistance of the Beijing regime to help him secure the Liberal Party nomination. CSIS was aware of Beijing's interference at the time of the nomination. CSIS briefed key officials, top Liberals, including Jeremy Broadhurst and the president of the Liberal Party of Canada. There were four top Liberals, all of whom had the appropriate security clearance to receive that briefing to inform them that, yes, the member for Don Valley North, the then Liberal candidate, had been assisted by the Beijing regime.

Jeremy Broadhurst thought it was serious enough that he briefed the Prime Minister the following day about that briefing. The Prime Minister, having been made aware that one of his candidates was being assisted by the Beijing regime, did nothing. He turned a blind eye to it. He covered it up and allowed that individual to stand for office and get elected and hoped that no one would find out.

Madam Justice Hogue, in her report, concluded that the Prime Minister's inaction with respect to the now member for Don Valley North, whom he had been briefed on, was due to his political concerns primarily. That is paraphrasing what Madam Justice concluded, that it was out of political motivation that the Prime Minister didn't act.

There you have it. Madam Justice Hogue, the commissioner of the public inquiry, found that the Prime Minister put his political interests and the interests of the Liberal Party ahead of national security and ahead of countering Beijing's interference in our democratic processes. That's the record of this Prime Minister.

It's also, by the way—with respect to the member for Don Valley North and security briefings—very interesting that the member was then tipped off that he was a target of CSIS.

That raises questions about who tipped him off. We know that four top Liberals received the briefing from CSIS and we know that the Prime Minister was informed by Mr. Broadhurst about the contents of that briefing.

The circle is actually quite small as to who may have tipped the member for Don Valley North off that he was a target of CSIS—

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Ms. Fortier, you have the floor.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Chair, I understand that my colleague feels the need to talk at length about his motion. However, I would simply like to remind you that as per the agenda, we are here to discuss electoral issues with witnesses, some of whom are disabled. Needless to say, they are ready to give their testimony. Perhaps our colleague will agree to pause his remarks so that our committee can do the work as planned and devote the next 45 minutes to the witnesses. Afterwards, our colleague can continue to talk about his motion, if he wishes.

We should at least keep in mind that we have an agenda. It would be really nice if we could possibly avoid long interventions to get to the point of the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Ms. Fortier. What you are raising is purely a matter of debate.

You are certainly within your right, Madame Fortier, to share your viewpoint. However, Mr. Cooper has the floor and it's up to him to determine what he would like to do with the floor.

Mr. Cooper, the floor is yours.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The member for Don Valley North had been tipped off and there were—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Mr. Cooper's intervention isn't even relevant to the motion that he's put on notice. It has nothing to do with the cyber-attack that's in question in his motion.

I'm not sure what he's speaking to, but it's not relevant to the actual question of privilege that we've been debating.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Colleagues, here's what I'm going to do because it's worked in the past. Let's see if it works again.

I'm going to suspend here briefly with the hope that the parties can come together and decide how they want to use the next 45 minutes or so. We do still have our witnesses present, who have taken time out of their busy schedules to speak to us on a very important matter. The window that we have to hear from them is closing rapidly .

I'm going to suspend to ask the parties to negotiate some type of solution to the stalemate that we appear to be at right now and then I will come back once I have an understanding of where that may go.

Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

If I may just ask a question, is there a possibility of extending or having more resources for an extension of time, so that we do hear from the witnesses if that's the choice that's made?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Unfortunately, Ms. Mathyssen, we don't have the resources. That's why it's particularly important that the committee members determine how they want the next 40 minutes or so to go.

Based on what I just said, I'm going to suspend.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Colleagues, we're going to resume our proceedings here.

Mr. Cooper, you had the floor, and I'll turn the floor back to you.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As I was stating before we suspended that five Liberals, including the Prime Minister, received directly or indirectly a briefing that the member for Don Valley North was assisted by the Beijing regime to help him secure his nomination. That member was tipped off by a top Liberal. Who was it? Was it Jeremy Broadhurst? Was it the Prime Minister himself? Was it Ishmael, the president of the Liberal Party? Did he tip off the member for Don Valley North? It is a question that needs to be answered.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.