Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to be asking a question about the costs of the election starting in 2009 and going up to 2021, so if you don't have that information handy with you, you can find somebody who can get me what the final costs or the total costs were for the general elections for those five years.

The question I do have right now is a follow along.

My spouse is an immigrant to Canada. She is part of a diaspora community here. I know that in her diaspora community, there are long-term care facilities that are pretty much exclusively utilized by members of that diaspora, not exclusively, but pretty much. I'm assuming that's the case for numerous other diaspora communities.

This committee has been seized with questions of foreign interference in particular diasporas in Canada. My assumption would be, and I'd like to see if my assumption is correct, that there would be some long-term care facilities that would largely have in it residents from certain diasporas that might be under a potential threat of foreign interference.

Is that true?

[Trevor Knight]

Is the question whether there are some diaspora communities that have...or long-term care homes that focus on certain diaspora communities?

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

There are certain long-term care facilities that might be established by diaspora community groups, for example.

I know that in Edmonton and Red Deer and other places in Alberta, you would have Catholic long-term care facilities. There's a Polish long-term care facility. My wife is a Polish immigrant to Canada in Edmonton as well.

I'm assuming that this would be happening in other parts of Canada. There would be Chinese cultural community long-term care facilities that run and manage these things, largely to the benefit of Chinese Canadians, for example. The same would be happening in other cultural communities. I'm just making an assumption, and I'm asking if my assumption is true.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Mr. Calkins, I'm going to interrupt because, again, I see that Mrs. Pereira has her hand up and perhaps would like to speak to this.

Mrs. Pereira, moving forward, it's not the usual practice, but I don't mind if you just unmute and say, “I can speak to this” just in case we miss your hand.

We'll go to you, and then we'll go to Mr. Knight, should he feel there's something to add.

Go ahead, Mrs. Pereira.

[Rachel Pereira]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the questions from the members on this. This relates to clause 2 of Bill C-65. The witnesses may not be in a position to speak to potential foreign interference at long-term care facilities. We just wouldn't be in a position to speak to this, but we're happy to respond to to any sort of technical questions related to the bill. It's just something for the committee's consideration.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Well, I'm a little confused as to why there wouldn't be somebody here who could speak to it. I'm not suggesting that somebody here speak directly to the issue of foreign interference, but if we are changing or relaxing some of the provisions that would enable electors to vote, I would submit to you that those who are in the business of clandestine foreign interference would use whatever vehicles or tools made available to them.

I've been here a long time. We've done studies on elder abuse and on a number of different issues. I would submit to you, and this is just my opinion, that the population in a long-term care facility could be subjected to potential threats or abuse from a variety of sources, and one of those sources could be those who are engaged in clandestine foreign interference. I'm wondering whether the relaxing of these provisions is going to make that better or worse. I can see this potentially being abused. I'm not saying it's going to be, but does that potential for that kind of abuse exist?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

I am seeing Mrs. Pereira's hand again, or is that from before?

[Rachel Pereira]

I'm sorry. That was from before.

I can add that, yes, the member is correct. These risks always exist, and potentially exist under the current regime, under the Canada Elections Act, where you have friends who can assist at the request of the elector, and friends could be, as Mr. Duncan had mentioned, quite general.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

That was a change that was made since the 2015 election. Is that not correct?

[Rachel Pereira]

I will defer to my colleague, Mr. Knight, on when that might have been introduced.

[Trevor Knight]

I think the friend provision has been there since 2000.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Do we have a cost for administering the general elections from 2009 to 2021?

[Trevor Knight]

I don't have that information with me, no.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I think I did ask this question. Should this clause pass, what are the expected increases to the costs to deliver a general election?

[Trevor Knight]

I'm sorry, but I don't have that information. Of course, I will endeavour to answer to the best of my ability, but I am here to speak to the legal ramifications of the changes to the bill. It's difficult to answer questions on operational or administrative matters.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I would entertain an answer from anybody who might know.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Mr. Calkins, I am going to submit here that I think our officials are doing the best that they can. It's not that your questions are out of line, by any means, but perhaps we can ask for written submissions from other officials who are capable of presenting that so that we're not asking our officials who happen to be here today to comment on things that they're not capable of providing insight on.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Yes, perhaps somebody could get that information for me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

If you want, we'll make a note to the clerk that you would like to have a written submission from witnesses on that point.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Is there an actual budget that's set aside? I know there's a budget for the department to maintain annual operations and so on. I'm just wondering, is there an actual budget for an election, or is it just that, whatever it costs to deliver the election, it's what it costs? How does it work? I'm not talking about maintaining department operations on an annual basis but about the budget proportion for an election. Is it just that we spend the money because it costs what it costs, it is what it is, and we just pay the bill when the bills come in, or is there actually any effort to maintain a general election within a certain budget parameter?

[Trevor Knight]

Again, it's not really my area of expertise. However, there is pretty extensive...my understanding is there is a budget. There is quite a bit of budgeting that happens, and there is quite a bit of information about this on our website and in our annual reports to Treasury Board, in terms of the plans and the results. I think that would be a good source for a lot of that information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

I am going to interject here again.

Are you done, Mr. Calkins?

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you.

I'd just like colleagues to note that part of the reason we read the titles of the witnesses is so that we can help those watching and ourselves understand their roles. Mr. Knight is general counsel for the Chief Electoral Officer's office. He is here, as are others from the Privy Council Office, to provide technical guidance on the legislation before us. This does not mean that we are not within our right to ask for further information, but I would just ask, out of respect for our witnesses and the hats that they are wearing as they occupy these chairs here today, that we try our best to save questions for them that relate to the things that they are well-versed in.

With that, I go to Mr. Berthold, followed by Mr. Cooper, followed by Mr. Turnbull.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've managed to get my notes in order, so I can ask the question I wanted to ask at the beginning.

There's a lot of talk about long-term care facilities, because section 2 adds clarification on the subject.

What is the definition of a long-term care facility, and what facilities might fit that definition?

I'll tell you why I want to know that. We also have people from Elections Canada walking around seniors' residences collecting their votes. It's not the same process as long-term care facilities, but more and more of these seniors' residences now have a care wing that's set aside for people who need long-term care.

Can you give us your exact definition of “long-term care facility”, which we've been talking about all along, so that we have a good grasp of what we're talking about?

To what extent can this definition be extended to seniors' residences?