Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 12th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I call this meeting to order. Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to meeting number 21 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today to consider the main estimates of the Leaders' Debates Commission. For the first half of the meeting, I would like to welcome Minister LeBlanc and officials from PCO, including Allen Sutherland and Sarah Stinson.

I will remind members that all comments and questions should be made through the chair. The more we can adhere to that, the less I will interrupt. I will also remind members that interpreters have a tough job to do, so if we slow it down a bit, it's easier for them to provide interpretation.

With that, Minister LeBlanc, welcome to the PROC committee. You are the first minister to come here, so please leave the bar in an adequate spot. You have up to five minutes.

Welcome.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Madam Chair, I always strive for adequate in my work, so I hope I meet that high standard today.

Madam Chair, thank you for inviting me. Through you to our colleagues, thank you for the work you're doing. I'm pleased to appear before your committee to discuss the main estimates for the Leaders' Debates Commission. I understand the Right Honourable David Johnston will be coming shortly after we finish our time together.

I am joined, as you said, Madam Chair, by Al Sutherland, who's the assistant secretary to the cabinet for machinery of government. It's a very impressive title. In my riding, they think that's like a snowplow, but Al handles the machinery of government, which includes democratic institutions. Sarah Stinson is the director of operations of the democratic institutions secretariat at the Privy Council Office.

Madam Chair, we believe, as I think all members do, that Canadians have many reasons to be proud of our democracy. It's not without challenges, but there are many more reasons that we should celebrate our democracy than be concerned about it. Our institutions and practices reflect our societal values. I think we all agree that we need to protect them as best we collectively can. At the same time, there are always opportunities to improve and strengthen democratic institutions to better fulfill democracy's promise.

I thank you, Madam Chair, and your colleagues on this committee, for the work that you do on an ongoing basis on these issues.

The leaders' debates play an essential role in federal elections and are the cornerstone of a healthy, dynamic and diverse democracy in Canada.

Since it was created in 2018, the Leaders' Debates Commission, which is independent, has sparked Canadians' interest in two federal elections, in 2019 and in 2021, and provided a platform that enables the public to learn more about the potential prime ministers, the party leaders, and their ideas for the country, and to compare them.

While the Leaders' Debates Commission receives limited administrative support from the Privy Council Office, it conducts its mandate with complete independence and in the public interest. Led by an independent commissioner and supported by a seven-member advisory board, the Leaders' Debates Commission's mandate is to organize two leaders' debates—one in each official language—for every federal election.

In November 2020, I announced that the Leaders' Debates Commission, originally established to organize debates for the 2019 general election, would remain in place for the subsequent election. As I said, that was last year. The government also reappointed the debates commissioner, the Right Honourable David Johnston, for a four-year term, and I am grateful that he has agreed to stay in this role. We can all benefit from his leadership, his knowledge, his experience and his judgment.

During the 2021 federal election, over 10 million Canadians tuned in to the English language debate and over four million watched the French language debate. They were distributed on 36 television networks, four national radio networks and 115 digital streams. The debates were more accessible than ever, being provided in 16 languages, including six indigenous languages, American sign language and la langue des signes québécoise. They were also available with closed captioning and described video.

During the months that followed, the Commission conducted an exercise on the lessons learned from its experience in the 2021 debates. That exercise resulted in a report containing carefully thought out recommendations that will help to guide future leaders' debates.

I have received a mandate from the Premier Ministre to examine the report tabled in the House of Commons this week dealing with ways to improve the leaders' debates and take the necessary measures for the debates to continue to serve the public interest.

I would obviously like to thank Commissioner Johnston for his considered and thoughtful assessment, and candid assessment, of the 2021 debates. I had an opportunity to speak with the Right Honourable David Johnston earlier this week. I thanked him personally for the work that he and his colleagues have done. I would welcome your thoughts on the commissioner's report. I know and hope that PROC will be seized of this question and will provide all of us with recommendations on a path forward.

Madam Chair, I know that our time is limited and colleagues may have questions, so let me turn briefly to the main estimates, precisely the purpose of our conversation today and the subject of this appearance.

The main estimates for 2022-23 include an amount of $454,187 for the Leaders' Debates Commission, which reflects the amount allocated in budget 2021. More specifically, budget 2021 revised the existing two-year pre-election and election year funding profile for the commission to allocate the existing funding over a four-year period—$500,000 for the first year of an election cycle, $700,000 for the second, $700,000 for the pre-election year and $3.6 million for the election year—to ensure that the commission has sufficient funds to prepare for general elections and obviously be prepared on an ongoing basis in a minority Parliament. These measures will help ensure that the leaders' debates continue to play the role we hope they can in subsequent federal elections.

Madam Chair, that concludes these very exciting opening comments. I'm looking forward to colleagues' questions. If there are technical questions around the estimates, Sarah and Al can provide answers, or else we'd be happy to undertake to get the information, through you, Madam Chair, that colleagues would like.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for your comments.

We will begin the first round of questions, with six minutes for each.

Ms. Block, you have the floor.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Through you, I would like to thank our witnesses for joining us today. Thank you, Minister LeBlanc, for being here, and thank you to your departmental staff. We appreciate the time you're giving to our committee today.

Right off the top, I want to ask a question about the creation of the independent Leaders' Debates Commission. You noted in your opening remarks that it was created in 2018. I'm wondering if you could give us an idea of why it was created. It didn't exist prior. I'm just wondering what motivated the creation of this commission.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, thank you for the question.

I think all of us who were candidates—or interested, at least, if not candidates—in the 2015 election saw a series of debates organized in some cases regionally and in some cases by networks. Various leaders participated in many of them, and some not in all of them. There were obvious questions raised: What were the appropriate eligibility criteria? How did various networks or organizations or universities decide whom to invite?

We thought it would be important to have an independent, thoughtful opportunity. The obvious choice of the Right Honourable David Johnston we think impressed upon Canadians the seriousness of this effort. I think his reputation and independence allowed for a thoughtful discussion of how to organize, in the most accessible way possible, access to leaders' debates.

The basic principle, Madam Chair, to answer our colleague's question, was to ensure the highest degree of accessibility. Networks were able to carry these televised debates. They could be listened to on the radio, as I said. It would offer a neutral platform for the party leaders to be able to connect directly with Canadian voters.

It was an exercise in evolution. There were some things that may have worked well and some that may not have. The commissioner has obviously offered reflections.

That was sort of the basic motivation. Many other democracies—of course, we think of European countries—have similar structures.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Minister.

I'll follow up with another question. You defined the relationship between PCO and this commission as the PCO providing “limited administrative support”. Does the PCO provide any funding to the leadership commission? You outlined an amount here. Does that come directly from PCO?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I'll ask Al, because it's a technical question but an important one. I would assume that in the normal estimates process of Parliament and so on, the money comes through the Privy Council Office in the estimates approved by Parliament and the budgetary process.

Al, can you provide a very quick and precise answer to Madam Block?

[Allen Sutherland, Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Machinery of Government and Democratic Institutions, Privy Council Office]

Sure.

Madam Chair, the minister is correct.

For any services that PCO provides, the back office services—the administrative services—are one portion of it, but the actual flow of money is as you see in the main estimates. PCO does not provide supplementary funding on top of that. I think that's what you were trying to discern. In fact, the debates commission does pay for any back office support that is provided by PCO. There's a mechanism for doing that.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thanks very much.

Madam Chair, once again, through you, my final question is around the comments you made about the motivation for this commission in wanting to ensure an independent, transparent forum when it came to our leadership debates. I'm wondering if you can tell us how you ensure the independence or the unbiased involvement of your moderators when they are invited to moderate a debate.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, thank you for the question.

That is an essential element, I would argue, of public confidence and credibility in the debates themselves and in the ability of various political leaders to get their message out to Canadians.

Obviously the government does not play a role in those questions about moderators and so on. That's why we thought of the Right Honourable David Johnston as the debates commissioner, with the professional staff that he had assembled to advise him. For example, Michel Cormier, a very senior well-known journalist at Radio-Canada, with a national and international reputation, worked with Commissioner Johnston.

Those questions are critical. The commissioner has reflected in his two reports after those elections on those issues.

I would urge you to have that conversation with him in a few moments, because I think, Madam Chair, that our colleague Madam Block has identified what is for us an essential and fundamental issue: to ensure independence, credibility and integrity from a journalistic perspective of these debates. Mr. Johnston perhaps could add something to what I've said.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Fergus, six minutes go to you, please.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to address my questions and comments to Mr. Leblanc and the two Privy Council Office officials.

First, I'd like to thank you for coming to testify before the committee.

Actually, my question is really for Ms. Stinson or Mr. Sutherland. It concerns the votes in the Main Estimates.

If there were to be no elections in 2022-2023, depending on the situation, would a portion of the proposed votes for the Leaders' Debates Commission remain unused?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

If I may, Madam Chair, I'd like to answer, and Mr. Sutherland or Ms. Stinson can then give details about the votes carried forward.

The goal is to provide for basic operations. This is a minority government and elections could occur at any time. Mr. Fergus, you and I didn't vote in favour of a censure motion, but such a motion could eventually pass. In that case, there would be an early election. I spoke with representatives of the Right Honourable David Johnston, and we decided to provide for basic operations, even if it means bringing it back in the event of an early election.

Mr. Sutherland can answer Mr. Fergus' question about long-term votes.

[Allen Sutherland]

Madam Chair, I'll just say that the way the budget is set up is designed to provide flexibility in the event that an election occurs later, or earlier.

As the minister well stated, you have this kind of foundation amount. I believe the commissioner said that he has five staff. Four are part time and one is full time. You have in the funding allocation the $500,000, which is enough for that amount of resourcing.

Should there be an election that comes earlier, he has access to about $2.8 million in order to realize and execute the debates. However, it's frozen until such time as it's needed. The intent is to provide the flexibility that the commission needs in the event of an unexpected election, which, as was said, in a minority government is always possible.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Madam Chair, my question is for the Minister.

In your opening remarks, you talked about the origins of the Commission, whose mandate, as everyone knows, is to establish the criteria for participating in the leaders' debates.

Do you think the criteria established in the last election should be changed? If so, how should they be changed?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, that is another essential question.

Following the most recent debates, in 2019 and the fall of 2021, I spoke with the Right Honourable David Johnston. The criteria used for selecting the leaders to participate in the debates are primarily up to the Commission.

A Federal Court decision on accreditation of journalists so they can participate in the press conferences following the debates did spark some controversy, or interest. It is always very delicate. Mr. Fergus has identified the crucial question. It isn't the role of an elected government, which is partisan in the good sense of the word, to choose what journalists will be accredited. That decision is up to the Commissioner.

The Commission established the criteria and released them publicly to Canadians. Those criteria were applied. The criteria changed somewhat between the first debate, in 2019, and the one last year. We are going to rely on the independent judgment of the Commission and the thoughts that Mr. Johnson set out in his reports, but also on the opinions of the committee of experts he consulted and the professionals who considered the question.

In my conversations with Mr. Johnson, I was impressed by the significant effort he made to understand what happens in other large democracies, whether in Europe or in the Americas. That is what the Commissioner and his team drew on. Nonetheless, it is still a subject that will necessarily give rise to controversy.

I'm going to let Mr. Johnson explain the context for us.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Therrien, you have six minutes.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

I'd like to thank the Minister and his colleagues for being here today.

The Leaders' Debate Commission is independent of the Minister. That means that you don't really have any power, when the Commission makes its decisions in performing its mandate. Is that correct?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Absolutely.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

The objective is simple and understandable, and it's to your credit.

Assume that I'm a Liberal minister.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You would be a good one.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

That'll never happen.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You wear it well.