Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 7th, 2022

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, through you, I now want to refer to the private member's bill, Bill C-246, and quote Emmett Macfarlane again. He said, “Once you start violating representation by population and you are actually enacting policy or constitutional change to protect one province over the interests of the others”—these are Mr. Macfarlane's words—“I think that's when constitutional amendment becomes required and it would be more than just Parliament unilaterally doing it”.

I think what we've heard here is that, going by the census, Quebec currently represents just under 23% of Canada's population, yet, what's being proposed in Bill C-246 would guarantee Quebec no less than 25%, regardless of the population decline.

Would that require and trigger the amending formula? I guess what I really want to ask is, what challenges do you foresee holding up this process, if that were the case? It seems that doing this through a private member's bill could create quite a few challenges. Could you speak to that, Minister, through the chair?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

The chair is indicating that I should be very brief. I will be.

We believe that legislated floor.... I think it would take Quebec seats to 89 from the 78 with Bill C-14. They would go to 89. We believe that would be ultra vires of Parliament. It would be outside the legislative scope of Parliament. It would probably trigger a series of legal challenges. It would, in our view, be counterproductive to allowing the commissions to do the work they have to do. We expect, as Professor Macfarlane and a number of others have indicated, the courts would conclude that this is, more properly, a constitution-amending formula issue. For the reasons we discussed with Ms. Romanado, we don't think this is the most efficient and effective way to resolve these issues in the very short term.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Minister LeBlanc. That was excellent vocabulary—impressive.

Mr. Therrien, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I too would like to speak to the minister about some projects in my constituency, but not now. I can do that later.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You may want to talk about the La Prairie youth centre. Good news is coming on that front.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Yes, and there are also the banks of the St. Regis River, my friend. I'm waiting. We'll talk about it again.

Let's get back to our topic.

A constitutional scholar appeared before us earlier. The question was clear. I think it was Ms. Romanado who asked it. On our proposal to have 25% representation as suggested in the Charlottetown accord, he said it was possible. Should it be 25% or 24%? He said that's where it could become moot.

There were references to some constitutional experts, but I am a little disappointed, because I would have liked to hear them. I know that the minister cannot invite them. That said, Mr. Turnbull followed up on that earlier by quoting one of those constitutionalists. Mr. Turnbull is always insightful when he speaks; I like him a lot. I would have liked to talk to this constitutional expert and ask him questions. That's what I think is a shame. There are now balls coming out of left field. On the other hand, the only constitutional expert we heard from told us that this amendment was possible.

If I may, Madam Chair, I will quote some facts to the minister.

Since 1987, the courts have recognized that exceptions exist to ensure effective representation and that the federal Parliament has the power to enact measures to do so. So we are not talking about getting the agreement of seven provinces representing 50% of the population. The Supreme Court has recognized the fundamental principle of effective representation as a charter right of the elector. This principle includes two conditions. First, there must be relative equality, that is, the weight of one voter's vote must not be disproportionate to that of another voter. Mr. Vis rightly mentioned this earlier, wondering why his vote would be less important than that of another voter elsewhere. We must therefore respect the idea that a voter is a voter, regardless of where he or she is. However, there is a second condition to the principle of effective representation: there must also be respect for natural communities. It is specified that factors such as geographical characteristics, history and community interests must be taken into account. This is what it says.

It is this second condition, which I mention to the minister, that gives the federal Parliament the ability to change the law, as it did with the minimum threshold. But strangely enough, when we propose to set a minimum proportion of 23%, 24% or 25%, it would not work. I would like to know why it wouldn't work, when here it seems to say quite clearly that it can.

I would like to hear the minister's comments on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Minister, you have one minute to answer the question without interruption.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I, too, look forward to announcing the good news about the La Prairie youth centre, which is located in my friend's riding.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

There are also the banks of the St. Regis River.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

We will also continue to work on the waterfront issue and discuss it at length with the mayor of the Magdalen Islands.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

I'm talking about Sainte-Catherine; it's not the same thing.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, Mr. Therrien raises some interesting points about constitutional law, including Supreme Court precedents. He has explained them well. However, I am not familiar with the specific precedent to which he referred. In any event, I would venture to guess that factors such as geographic representation, communities of interest, and linguistic communities, which are subject to judicial review, are normally taken into account by the electoral boundaries commissions when discussing how to apportion the number of seats according to the formula the Chief Electoral Officer gives them.

I don't think you can extrapolate and establish that this applies, for example, to a minimum threshold of representation that far exceeds demographic weight, as Mr. Turnbull has said.

As I said earlier in response to Mr. Vis's question, Parliament will have this discussion again in 10 years' time, and I suspect they will discuss exactly the same issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

I didn't really get an answer to my question, but I would like to end with the words of—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Your time is up, Mr. Therrien.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

That's a shame, I was going to talk about Bernard Derome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much, Mr. Therrien.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I have no questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's fine.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

In that case, may I use his speaking time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

No, not this time.

We have a few minutes left. So Mr. Vis and Mr. Fergus can each ask a question.

Go ahead, Mr. Vis.

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, again, Madam Chair.

I'm enjoying this discussion so much today. It got me thinking of one of my favourite New Brunswick scholars, Donald Savoie, the former Canada research chair, if not the current one, in public administration.

In his book from a few years ago, Democracy in Canada, he referenced the Laurentian elite and talked about the concentration of both Ontarians and Quebeckers in the public service, and that the public service culture in Ottawa isn't very representative of the culture of western Canada.

This is something I know the minister is somewhat aware of, but it is true that in certain parts of British Columbia, and much throughout Alberta, people do feel disconnected from our institutions here in Ottawa.

My wife is from Ottawa, and she moved to British Columbia. When she first came there, she said, “Brad, I had no idea about the wealth discrepancies that exist, or how far away or that every neighbourhood just doesn't have a nice ice rink like in the national capital region, which is funded by taxpayers.”

Maybe I'll ask my question of our public servants. What do you think the public service of Canada can do to ensure better and adequate representation of western Canadian values, including value for taxpayer dollars?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'll just remind us that we are here to talk about Bill C-14 with a side of infrastructure, so—

[Brad Vis, Conservative, Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'll just add to that. This is completely related to Bill C-14, because at the heart of Bill C-14, we know as a fact that British Columbia and Alberta especially, and Ontario, do not receive.... It does not live up to the principle of representation by population. It matters to people. The election of members to this House of Commons has an impact on our institutions.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, very briefly, I know we're running out of time, but Mr. Vis referenced Dr. Donald Savoie, whom I am very fortunate to count as a friend. He was a dear friend of my father. He is somebody I see regularly in New Brunswick.

You're right, Mr. Vis, he has published, I think, north of 30 books. My favourite one is I'm from Bouctouche, Me, which is a community in my riding where he grew up.

He has correctly identified a challenge—it's in the public service, and I would argue it's in other national institutions as well—to ensure that regions are properly represented. I worry about francophone minorities outside Quebec. We worry, obviously, about indigenous peoples. Across the country, the diversity of our country is often not reflected. The regional diversity but other diversities as well are not properly reflected in institutions like the public service and you could argue other national institutions.

It's a constant effort that our government is trying to undertake, and we would obviously welcome thoughtful suggestions. Like your wife, I grew up in Ottawa and moved to New Brunswick. I went to another coast, but I totally understand the perspective that Mr. Vis properly brought up at this table.