Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I think pairing may work for some circumstances but not for longer-term issues, like a health issue or if you have to take a couple of weeks to stay home with a child or with an elderly parent. The coordination alone is difficult.

All of us have to do trades for when we are away from committee, or if we have to go away for a conference or so forth. It's difficult enough just to find somebody to substitute your spot, never mind trying to coordinate it in the longer term. That is where going hybrid or having hybrid provides the flexibility.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Does pairing provide the opportunity, which I know Arnold appreciated very much, to be able to participate or represent your constituents at that time?

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I think pairing would have just been short term, but it would not have provided greater comfort in knowing that there is somebody who is going to be there for the longer term. Hybrid provides some assurance that you can be there if you want, or you can find other means.

I feel that it would have made the situation for our family much more amenable.

I'm sorry. I need a moment.

I will just say this. I think the flexibility of hybrid will help those who serve be healthier, both physically and mentally. It will help all of us do the job that we love.

Thank you.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

My next question goes to MP Kmiec. You referenced the use of pairing in terms of the U.K. using the practice. I was wondering if you were aware that the U.K. also has a practice of proxy voting.

Were you aware of that?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Yes.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Proxy voting is a method by which if you are ill or if you have to take maternity leave or bereavement leave, it gives you the ability to participate and to register your vote. Were you aware of that? That gives those MPs in the U.K. a lot more ability to participate while they're not there, rather than just pairing off and not being a part of Parliament during that time.

I tend to agree with you in feeling that members should be present as often as possible in Parliament, because it creates a good network and bond. Do you feel it's better for them to at least be visible on a box and be able to participate vocally when something like that occurs, instead of not being there at all?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm sorry. We are at our time.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Could I get just a yes or a no?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's a lot to ask from that long question.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Madam Chair, can I just answer with “it depends”?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Sure.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

With just a yes or no, is it better to have them participate than not participate at all?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It depends.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

“It depends” is your answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

It sounds like the “or” option.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First, I'd like to offer my condolences to my colleagues, particularly Ms. Yip. I was a caregiver for myfather, who had amyotrophic lateral sclerosis for over a decade. I'd also like to say to my colleague Mr. Kmiec that words cannot express how it feels to lose a loved one, especially a child.

I'd like my colleague Ms. Larouche to elaborate on some of the things she covered. Among other things, she said that networking was more of a challenge for women. I'd like more information on that.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Like I said, that was really central to the working groups I set up to address issues involving women and poverty. When women can't network, it's very difficult for many of them to make progress on certain issues, and even to get promotions.

If I work from home instead of on Parliament Hill, I can't meet with representatives from an association or discuss a more specific matter with colleagues. When I'm on Parliament Hill, I can call my partner or the babysitter to tell them that I'll be working a half-hour longer to have a drink and speak with certain people. For women, that networking is the key to making progress on certain issues.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Excellent.

You gave some examples in terms of the lack of resources. I want to know what else is missing. I even saw members nodding to agree that, yes, Parliament cannot manage to offer all the amenities. I'd like more information on that.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

It's really important. As we've seen, Quebec led the way in creating its daycare network. They proved that having a safe place to leave their kids was the reason a lot of women were able to go back to work.

The same is true for family lounges with added resources. My partner could also have used a space like that. These are resources we can use rather than stay home and deal with the whole mental burden that comes with that.

That's something we experienced during the pandemic. On the Standing Committee on the Status of Women, of which I'm vice-chair, we studied the pandemic's disproportionate effects on women. We found that telework and having to manage children at home had a huge impact on women's mental health.

To balance work and family, it's important that I keep the two separated. On the one hand, I have my work, and on the other I have the time I can spend with my daughter.

We have resources in the workplace, but we could also consider having resources outside the workplace, such as nanny services. As I said, these are solutions observed in other countries' parliaments that make it possible for young women to fulfill their duties as an MP and a mother.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

A recent witness before our committee testified that telework might lead us to do more. What are the pros and cons of working at the office when someone has a child they want to take care of and spent time with? How does being on a screen rather than in the room affect accountability for every MP in the House of Commons?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

This goes to the whole question of parliamentary accountability. When we're there in the House, we can have informal discussions with colleagues in the hallways. In a hybrid Parliament, when we're working from home, we can't have those informal discussions or follow up on site.

It's mostly because being at home with your child has an impact on the work you can do, for it puts more pressure on you. I feel that's really a key factor, and it goes to the heart of the matter.

As I said, I'm just back from a trip to Rwanda. I heard people say that Parliament is no place to bring my child. I was told I should be at home. Some of the things they said were quite brutal. For example, they said I was using my child. However, it's important to me that I convey a different message, and not suggest that because I'm a good mother, I can't be a good MP, or vice-versa.

I also talked about space. Sometimes it's hard to keep things in check when you're working from home. That became obvious during the pandemic. We let go and the number of Zoom meetings grew. It went on and on until we could no longer tell the difference between work time and personal time. When we work on screen, we tend to hold more and more Zoom meetings. However, it's important that we be able to physically distance ourselves from that.

That's also why I talked about more flexible schedules. I'm living proof: When you're a mother and you have to attend debates until midnight for purely political reasons, you can start to question things.

I'd even take it further. We sometimes forget that this is a minority government. The voters we represent asked us to negotiate with the government so we could get along. You can't agree to get along from a computer screen. I've just returned from a diplomatic mission and I can attest to that: all the informal discussions we had with colleagues to make progress wouldn't have happened if we'd been on a screen. In a minority government context, that's also an important issue to raise.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I only have a few seconds left.

To summarize what we've heard, generally speaking, working at the office helps keep people from shirking their responsibilities. It makes us ask questions, get answers and make things happen.

Does that mean the hybrid model prevents accountability?

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

That's exactly it, because you can't have the same impact.

As MPs, first and foremost we represent our constituents. So we have to listen to them and carry their message. If we stay in the bubble of our constituency, we won't get the opportunity to discuss our issues with our colleagues in Parliament and, based on comments from the people, find a way to introduce more meaningful bills that lead to laws better representing what we see on the ground that will help the people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank all of the folks who are here to testify.

For me, as we go through this, I'm really interested in having concrete discussions about how we can come together on this, because I don't think it is an all-or-nothing. I personally like being here better. I think it's really important. I know since the very beginning that when I would speak and I would hear from other parties that they would have similar issues, we were able to work together. I think that will always be important. I'm very aware of that.

I also acknowledge that if people are having severe health challenges or are caring for someone and they cannot leave their home, I don't want to silence that voice. I think it's very important when you are elected that your voice is heard in this place. Things happen. I think of other testimony, and Carol's as well today, where they talked about real health issues that mean you cannot travel—you cannot. Does that mean your voice is silenced for that period of time?

Voting is part of it, but that is not all of it. It's also the House work and the committee work. We saw people do tremendous work and make speeches in the House of Commons and their committees virtually, because we have that tool. I'm very hopeful that we can come together and have really concrete discussions about what works well, what our concerns are and how we do this in a way that increases inclusion and doesn't exclude.

I'm going to come to you, Ms. Jones. You said you had four main points. I want to give you an opportunity to share those with the committee, since you didn't have enough time in your presentation.