Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Nater, welcome to PROC. You have up to six minutes.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's great to be back on PROC and to be in this august chamber. Thank you, colleagues, for your faith in me as vice-chair of this wonderful committee.

Thank you to the Speakers as well, Mr. Speaker Bennett and Mr. Speaker Arnott, for joining us and for their expertise as our provincial counterparts on the matters that are before us.

I want to start with Mr. Speaker Arnott just to clarify.

Throughout the pandemic, the Legislative Assembly itself never met virtually; it was constantly in person. Could you just explain briefly what measures were taking place in terms of the numbers within the assembly during that time to ensure that it remained safe?

[Ted Arnott]

Throughout the pandemic, the Legislative Assembly of Ontario continued to sit in person as a whole when the House sat. As I said, the committees, in many cases, were sitting virtually, but the House as a whole sat in person. We had to take, of course, a long list of new approaches in order to facilitate this and make sure that it was done safely. Most days during, I would say, the worst of the pandemic, we had fewer than 30 members of provincial Parliament in the chamber at any given time. In many cases, the caucuses had taken an approach to cohort so that if COVID-19 went through a caucus, there would be a replacement group that could come in. We did the same thing with the table staff to ensure that we could carry on even if there was an outbreak of COVID-19 amongst the caucuses.

I would say that our staff were enormously creative in order to ensure that we would have the practices and procedures necessary to be able to continue to function in person, and we were able to do so largely safely.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you for that, Mr. Speaker Arnott.

I don't want to put you on the spot or highlight how long you've been around, but you have some great experience as a member of provincial Parliament. You're now entering your fourth decade of service in the Ontario Legislative Assembly, with almost 33 years, I believe, as a member of provincial Parliament.

With your experience in that time that you have served as an MPP, I wonder if you could comment on some of the informal or unofficial roles that an MPP plays within the legislative precinct, within the “Pink Palace” as it's often called: those informal conversations in the corridors or over a cup of coffee, or grabbing a minister in and out of question period. Could you just reflect on some of the importance that you have seen over your time at Queen's Park?

[Ted Arnott]

I think you have made a very good point, John. It's hugely valuable for elected members to be able to interact in the chamber, outside of the chamber, in the corridors and in the lobbies. Having those face-to-face conversations can be very helpful in terms of ensuring that members are informed and that they're able to share best practices and ideas, as well as for members to be able to represent their constituents.

Throughout my time as a member, when I was advocating for my constituency, in many cases I would approach ministers, whether I was on the government side or whether I was on the opposition benches, and speak to them privately. That was a very important way of advancing an issue on behalf of constituents. Without that opportunity, I think it would have been far more difficult to achieve some of the things that we were able to get for our riding over the years.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you for that, Mr. Speaker Arnott.

I want to turn to Mr. Speaker Bennett to ask a couple of questions.

Unfortunately, your sound did cut out at one point during your presentation. It was at a point where you were talking about reverting to hybrid proceedings if the opportunity was needed. You were mentioning that it would be a decision made by the Speaker in consultation with the House leaders of the various parties. I want to follow up on that and just clarify that.

What type of decision-making process would you go through to determine whether to go back to a hybrid sitting? What would be the considerations that you, as Speaker, would make when making that decision?

[Derek Bennett]

I guess, first of all, we would consult largely with our chief medical officer to determine what the regulations and restrictions would be within the province at the time. We only have a small team, but we have a mighty team at the clerk's office that has been monitoring the health orders and restrictions throughout the process. What we would do is meet as a group first to see what regulations would be put in place. Then we also have a good, close working relationship with our government House leaders and our unaffiliated members, so we would engage with them to update them on the procedures and what our intentions would be and largely try to get their support. Ultimately, it would be our decision, but we found it was much more valuable if we communicated and had the support of all the members.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

As we speak, you're meeting entirely in person.

Are there any current members or parties pushing for a return to a hybrid Parliament at this point in time within Newfoundland and Labrador?

[Derek Bennett]

No, there aren't. We're very fortunate that we only have 40 members in our House of Assembly and we have a large legislature, so we were easily able to put a safe seating plan in place that kept our six-foot physical distance. We were fortunate in that matter. There hasn't been a push for it, but as I identify, we do use it largely in our committee structure, and that proved to be very valuable. We have a number of rural MHAs, some of whom live in Labrador so flying is always a concern. Therefore, within our management commission and other committees, we have used a virtual hybrid procedure much more readily.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Speaker Bennett.

Mr. Turnbull, we go to you for up to six minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thanks to both Speaker Arnott and Speaker Bennett for joining us today.

I had originally prepared a whole list of questions for Mr. Williamson because of his great research with the Inter-Parliamentary Union. I'll probably reference a few of those in my remarks and questions to Mr. Bennett and Mr. Arnott today, because I think it's interesting to see what they think, and given the fact that Mr. Williamson didn't have a headset that was good enough for us today. I'm hoping that he comes back, by the way, because I think he would provide a lot of important testimony for this study based on the research that they've done.

Mr. Bennett, I'll go to you. Do you think that the global pandemic provided a catalyst for change? I think we've seen our Parliament and all Parliaments really innovate within the pandemic, do you think it has provided a bit of an impetus or catalyst for change within Parliaments?

[Derek Bennett]

Definitely, I think so, especially with the use of virtual hybrid sittings. I guess none of us wanted to face COVID-19 or go through a pandemic, but it did provide an opportunity for all legislatures to learn, adjust and constantly evolve to the challenges that COVID-19 brought. We had our challenges with it, without a doubt, like every legislature, but our team rolled with the challenges. We came up with new and innovative ideas on how to address those challenges, and we worked quite well with our broadcast team and other teams to ensure that we were able to have proceedings and—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Bennett. I'm sorry. I don't mean to cut you off. I just want to ask a follow-up question.

Would you say that those tools and innovations have ongoing utility for Parliaments to consider modernizing or adding flexibilities that could benefit all MHAs, MPPs or MPs at the federal level?

[Derek Bennett]

Yes, I do think that there is the ability to use these technologies that we were forced to use over the last two years to adapt and make our legislatures more user-friendly and more family-oriented, and to deal with some of the challenges. If people have health issues or other types of challenges like travel issues, then the opportunities for hybrid virtual sittings could definitely be used in the future.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

In terms of business continuity planning, which I think is really important for any legislature or Parliament, we've seen in the Inter-Parliamentary Union's work and report that many Parliaments around the world had to go above and beyond the business continuity plan that they had in existence prior to the pandemic. Essentially, they've created new business continuity plans and created these innovative digital tools to help enable Parliaments right around the world to continue in the face of a major crisis, but also, certainly, to adapt and have flexibilities and modernizations within the workplace so Parliaments can be more inclusive, family-friendly, etc.

Would you agree that's a good thing to continue, Mr. Bennett?

[Derek Bennett]

Yes, I think so, definitely. Technology is constantly evolving, so I think as we continue to use virtual hybrid proceedings if necessary, the technology will further advance. I know our legislature will continue to look at upgrading systems as they evolve and utilize the system for virtual hybrid sittings where needed, particularly in the committees mostly. Like I say, we have a vast province and the technology is expensive to use, but there are also cost savings that can be seen for travel and other expenses in the cost to bring members to our capital city.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Mr. Arnott, would you agree with Mr. Bennett's sentiments? Has the Ontario legislature updated its business continuity plan?

If you were to experience another pandemic or a major crisis of some kind, do you think you would be able to utilize the tools and innovations you developed during the pandemic to quickly pivot to hybrid proceedings?

[Ted Arnott]

First of all, I would indicate that I agree with Speaker Bennett and the comments he just made.

The Ontario legislature does have a robust business continuity plan, which we have worked on over the years. It is ready to go, if ever needed.

We also would agree and concur that, as technology continues to evolve and give us opportunities to bring people together, the legislatures will continue to evolve. I would add this as well. It's up to the individual legislature, including the House of Commons or the Senate, to make its own decision. I wouldn't want to suggest that it's up to me to decide.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you for that. I appreciate that.

This is my last question.

We all agree that it's preferred, and many of us would prefer, to be here in person, yet there are extenuating circumstances. We've heard this from members of Parliament today, but we've also heard it in previous meetings. People have major health issues. They are travelling great distances. They have caregiver responsibilities. They're grieving a lost loved one. Are these circumstances in which...?

Although they would prefer to be here physically, should we be enabling and including, and not excluding, those members of Parliament, MPPs or MHAs, from participating in debate? Quickly, would you agree with that?

[Ted Arnott]

Who is that addressed to?

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

It is to Mr. Bennett and then Mr. Arnott.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I don't hear an answer.

[Derek Bennett]

I'm sorry—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Answer really quickly, because our time is up.

[Derek Bennett]

Our legislature, right now, does it as a collective group, not individual cases.

I do see it being valuable in the future, but for the Newfoundland and Labrador legislature it is a collective decision, right now, to use virtual hybrid.