Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 1st, 2022

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks to the panellists for the incredible presentation and updates. I had the opportunity of sitting on the working group in the last session of Parliament, and I grew to appreciate the size and complexity of this project. There's incredible work being done, both to preserve the heritage features and to ensure a great design that's going to meet the needs of parliamentarians and senators for many years to come. It's incredible work. I want to say thank you for the presentation.

I have a few questions.

One of the questions that is important to me and to Canadians is about getting to net zero. Our government has very big commitments around this that we're making lots of progress on.

This is for Mr. Wright, perhaps. You mentioned in your remarks a 75% reduction in energy usage and 50% in water usage, if I heard correctly. Could you give us a bit more detail on how that will be achieved, and whether that's mostly through mechanical system upgrades or a combination of factors?

[Rob Wright]

I will ask Ms. Garrett to add in some details on this.

You're exactly right. The replacement of the mechanical systems is a key part of making this building much more energy efficient. The closure of the courtyards also plays a part in that by removing a significant portion of the building from the exterior elements. We're also doing research with the NRC on how to effectively insulate these types of heritage buildings, which is very complex. One of the areas that will make a big difference is putting insulation in the roofline, which did not have insulation before.

I will pass it over to Ms. Garrett to add some more detail.

[Jennifer Garrett, Director General, Centre Block Program, Science and Parliamentary Infrastructure Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'll just add to what Mr. Wright said. Think about the standard things you like to do in your house, such as replacing windows and adding insulation. We're doing all of those things in addition to the systems that Mr. Wright is putting in place. Also key to achieving the strategy...and it is a very robust strategy. It goes from the planting to the mechanical systems. I think it's worth highlighting that we are putting a small geothermal field underneath the parliamentary welcome centre. Key to that is that it will allow us to exchange heat and cooling among the triad of buildings. There's also a very significant water-retention strategy that will be a key contributor to the program.

Between building systems, the normal kinds of things you do in your home, the geothermal field, and the heat exchange, we are going to go a very, very long way to achieving carbon neutral. We get very much all the way there just as a program, and then on top of it we're going to be buying clean energy off the grid. The grid is cleaning itself up as well, and that's the last little part that gets us there.

I'm happy to provide any further details. I'm cognizant of the time, so that's it in a nutshell.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you to the panellists for that response. That was great. I'm very happy to hear that geothermal is being considered and is in fact being used.

You mentioned that the working group was going to be discussing numerous topics to come. One of them was security issues. Obviously, with things we've seen in the last week or so occurring on Parliament Hill, and certainly some undertones of anti-government sentiment, I think all of the MPs, certainly in our caucus, are concerned about security. I wondered if there were new security concerns or considerations that would come up for that working group, and if you could give us some idea of what those might look like.

[Michel Patrice]

When speaking about security, I will remain very general. Let's just say that we are observing, learning from every situation that is occurring, and adapting in terms of plans, which will be discussed in camera, in relation to security.

One good example in terms of learning lessons, and Mr. Wright alluded to it, is the operationalization of the building that is needed after construction is completed. We learned quite a bit in terms of the move when we closed down Centre Block to go into West Block. It's very important for us as the House administration, and for you as parliamentarians, that the continuity of Parliament be a key feature. It must always be our first priority.

We learn every time. We adapt and we try to do better each time. A good example would be the transfer from the Centre Block to the West Block. We'll apply that same principle when it comes to security.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

You have 30 seconds, Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

On another train of thought, the independent design review panel is just incredible in terms of the expertise it brings to this project. Could members of the panel speak to any impacts they've had so far on the design? Moving forward, it seems that having that group doing that independent review is a really positive thing for us to have. Could you speak to the impact they've had so far?

[Rob Wright]

I'll highlight maybe three areas where they've had a significant impact. It's also important to note that their focus has really been on the public components of the building, not really on the core parliamentary aspects of the building.

With regard to the interface between the great lawn, the parliamentary welcome centre and into Centre Block, they've had quite a significant impact on how the welcome centre is essentially acting as a bridge to connect the public environment of the lawn into the welcome centre and then into the Centre Block. I think we have found, with their help, a good balance point between the public and the parliamentary side of the buildings so that it can work.

On that central entry, as Mr. Patrice underlined, there was a lot of hard work to get that in the position it is in today. I think we're on a very solid foundation. The—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I have to interrupt you. I would like to continue this conversation later. I think that you are speaking at a good pace; I hope the interpreters agree.

I will now give the floor to Ms. DeBellefeuille for six minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to add my voice to that of my colleagues and highlight the quality of this morning's presentation, which summarizes the broad steps of delivering this major project.

From what I understood, there is no plan to make the House of Commons larger.

Are you still planning for about 420 seats?

[Rob Wright]

Thank you for the question.

We are indeed developing plans to add seats to the House of Commons. This will allow all MPs to be in this important place.

I will give the floor to Mr. Patrice so that he can give us more details on the matter.

[Michel Patrice]

Thank you very much.

An increasing number of elected officials is indeed a reality, which I consider to be positive, within our democratic system. Given the potential growth of the number of MPs over the next 100 years, various plans and scenarios were studied.

I will ask Mr. de Grandmont, the architect of the Chamber, to give you an overview of the options considered. We are aware that the number of MPs will increase over the next 100 years.

[Darrell de Grandmont, Director, Centre Block Program, House of Commons]

Thank you.

The scenarios we have considered will be able to include a larger number of MPs. We are currently looking at reusing the furniture currently in the House of Commons. In the various scenarios, we are opting more and more for reusing heritage furniture. There is also the issue of integration.

As you have already seen in the past, one possibility under consideration is that some furniture would be set up in rows further back. We could also consider a complete fit‑up of the House of Commons and determine if it would be possible to use new furniture, considering the number of MPs.

To date, there is no plan or direction we are favouring over another, but we know that it will be necessary to develop scenarios to deal with this growth over the years. We will not necessarily limit ourselves to a single option. We will work, from one year to the next, based on the increasing number of MPs. This could include a scenario based on reusing the furniture, especially heritage assets. I believe that there is an interest in conserving them. We are therefore making significant effort to do so.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for Mr. Aubé.

Mr. Aubé, due to the pandemic, we have had to deal with technological challenges. For example, the limits associated with the rooms and technology will impact committee meetings. In the new Parliament, there will be space reserved for interpreters, booths, a certain number of rooms and technological equipment. That could allow us, without feeling limited by technology or room availability, to go through another period where operating in hybrid mode would be necessary.

Is what we are currently experiencing influencing the development of information technologies for the future Parliament?

[Stéphan Aubé, Chief Information Officer, Digital Services and Real Property, House of Commons]

Thank you for the question, Mrs. DeBellefeuille.

As you know, and as Mr. Patrice mentioned earlier, for us, business continuity is a very important principle when it comes to parliamentary activities. Consequently, for all of the infrastructure we will put in place inside the building, we will make sure to be able to function if ever there is another pandemic or other incidents that require us to work differently.

In addition, this building includes many challenges. Among other things, we have less space than before. We are considering various strategies to make sure to be able to offer the same level of service, but maybe in a different way. As part of the pilot projects, we are assessing the possibility of remote work to provide certain services. However, we want to make sure to offer the same level of service.

We must also respect the rules and procedures you will establish through this committee. Based on the choices you will make about how to function on a technological level, we will make sure that the infrastructure is in place and able to support you, and that it lines up with the way you want to work in the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

You have 40 seconds left.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

I have just one last question, Madam Chair.

Mr. Aubé, I am rather curious about your process. We are a modern organization. I imagine that you will confirm that your process includes consultations with users, namely the interpreters, so that they may participate actively in developing infrastructure that will suit them and allow them to offer high quality interpretation services in both official languages.

[Stéphan Aubé]

Mrs. DeBellefeuille, I can guarantee you that interpreters are full partners who collaborate on the implementation of any solution.

For instance, under this initiative, we have pilot projects on various ways to provide interpretation services. The translation bureau is our partner and any final decisions in terms of solutions are made in partnership with the bureau to ensure that their needs and yours are met through the services we will implement.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mrs. DeBellefeuille, for joining us in committee today.

We will now go to Ms. Blaney for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair. I appreciate that.

I'd like to thank everyone who is here presenting to us. It has been very informative, and I appreciate your summing up in such a short time such an enormous project.

I have a few questions.

One that was mentioned several times was about accessibility. I guess I would just like a bit of clarity about what that looks like, not only for visitors, which is incredibly important, but also for MPs. This is something I am personally really passionate about, because when spaces are accessible, we see more faces around the table, which we may not see traditionally.

I'm wondering if you could talk a bit about focusing on how we're making this more accessible for MPs. You spoke about having two floors for the lobbies. I think it's something to think about very carefully so that we don't send people who have a disability somewhere else to get to the same place as everyone else. I also think about walking in through the MPs' door in Centre Block, where there are stairs you can go up. I really enjoyed that experience, but I also think it's important that we look at it in terms of accessibility. Could you just clarify for me how we are making these spaces more accessible for MPs to be able to do their work regardless of their ability?

[Rob Wright]

I'll ask Ms. Garrett to add details again, but at a high level, to begin with, we're working closely with an accessibility advisory group on the designs. I can come back to the public experience, but the question was mostly around parliamentarians.

One important element is that with the Parliament Welcome Centre, the Centre Block, West Block and East Block will be interconnected with essentially a parliamentary promenade, which will really shift these three buildings to become one integrated complex, with a universal accessible pathway interconnecting the three buildings.

Universal accessibility from the exterior is a key part of this as well. We're really trying to ensure that the pathways are the same pathways for all people and that the means of moving through the building is the same for all people. There's been a tremendous amount of study around the placement and sizing of elevators, for example, to ensure that it's a very inclusive experience, as well as the placement, sizing and approach with washroom facilities.

It's a very inclusive approach beyond pure mobility issues.

I'll pass it over to Ms. Garrett to add details.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I don't want to interrupt, but, through you, Madam Chair, it's really important for me to understand the lobbies.

You're going to have the lobbies on two floors. That's integral to our work, and I just want to say that in the current space we're in, in the West Block, there are stairs to go up if you want to go in the back way, so it concerns me a bit, and that's another component.

[Jennifer Garrett]

I'll start with that and broaden out.

There has been a lot of focused work done and there will be a lot of discussion upcoming with the House of Commons working group on this very subject, given the importance of accessibility to the program. When I talk about accessibility, at this point in the schematic design process we're focused on mobility, but it is going to be an inclusive approach that will continue to evolve. We want to make sure, first and foremost, that the building doesn't get designed in a way that it gets in the way. There will have to be modifications to the chamber seating to make sure that we have dignified, inclusive seating and that people can manouevre within the chamber itself, from front to back.

In terms of the lobbies, the access from the lobby into the chamber is a key area of interest and study for us on the project to date, and there will be consultations with the working group coming up on that. There are solutions to get mobility-challenged people from the lobby that exists now into the chamber.

In terms of the extension into that two-level lobby, there will absolutely be not only stairs, but elevators within the lobby environment that connect the lobby together. That lower level where you have your food services and where you can meet with somebody will connect up through an elevator or a staircase, should you choose, to the main traditional lobby, which will function as it always has, with the whips and accessible access into the chamber.

I don't want to drive your time down. Is that what you were looking for, or would you like me to continue to broaden?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That helps.

My other question has already been brought up, about the current seating arrangement for members within the House of Commons. Is the chamber going to stay the same? As we went through that transition of having more members in the House in 2015, there were bucket seats.

This is another challenge for many reasons, in terms of having people moving in and out. Are you looking at that when you do it, and making sure people have their own seats, or are there discussions about having more of those seats?