Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 13th, 2022

[Allen Sutherland, Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Machinery of Government and Democratic Institutions, Privy Council Office]

I don't have a list of the 11 either.

What I can say is that as part of the 2019 and 2021 elections we engaged primarily with campaign chairs and chief information officers for the major parties. I have to say I was very pleased with the level of engagement we had with the parties. It was clear that partisanship was left at the door, and we had a seriousness of intent that I think was admirable.

The sorts of meetings we had were used to raise the issues around technology, because a lot of this is cyber-enabled, so for each of the parties we were laying out issues around technology requirements and the kinds of weaknesses and the simple things you've also heard about as part of your briefings with CSE—two-factor authentication and those sorts of things. Then there were also specific briefings by the RCMP, by CSIS and by CSE in kind of laying out the state of issues.

I would say this was an experiment in 2019. We did it again in 2021, and I would say it exceeded our expectations because of the seriousness with which each of the parties took it. It was, I think, a very helpful part of the protecting elections protocol. It meant that we created.... Because everyone was security-cleared, we could give secret briefings. It created an information link, so that if parties had issues, they could come to us and raise them with us one on one, as well as in a group setting.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

I guess my next question is specifically around consultation with the parties. I read about it in some of the information.

I'm just wondering if a candidate of a particular party was targeted specifically. I know you can't give details, but what was the process of letting the parties know? Was it something you talked about individually with parties if their particular candidate was identified? Was it something that was shared with all parties, not giving, maybe, the detailed facts? Were they alerted to that?

[Allen Sutherland]

Your question has a hypothetical aspect to it, so let me take it as a hypothetical.

If it related to a specific party, it was a discussion that would be had with the party. They could, of course, raise it in forum at the meetings, but they were not required to. If they had an issue, they could come to us. If we had an issue the other way, we could come to them.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, I want to make sure I understand Al's answer, because it's important.

The mechanism—and your question, Madam Blaney, is, I think, very appropriate—would probably be this group that was established where Al Sutherland and his colleagues were active participants with designated representatives of the parties. If their particular candidate had a concern about a particular circumstance, it would presumably, in a campaign structure, be raised with the appropriate campaign officials, who would then have access to Mr. Sutherland and other experts in that context.

I suppose, Al, in the same way, there would be a two-way process by which you have security-cleared, designated representatives of all these political parties with whom you and your colleagues could talk should you see a particular incident that required their awareness.

[Allen Sutherland]

That's correct.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's excellent. Thank you.

We will now continue with Mr. Berthold.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. LeBlanc and Ms. Joly, thank you for being with us today.

Mr. LeBlanc, I just want to confirm something. You said earlier that you couldn't share with us everything you learned during the briefings because some of the national security information couldn't be disclosed. Is that correct?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

This is a long-standing tradition that has been followed by many governments before us, so it won't surprise you at all to know that your statement is absolutely correct.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

During these briefings, were you personally informed of any specific instances of foreign interference in our elections by the Chinese communist regime?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

As I said in English in response to a question from Mr. Berthold's colleague, these discussions are general. In these discussions, intelligence services inform about the ways in which some foreign actors are trying to interfere, and that is not limited to the electoral context.

As for discussing specific cases in this context, you'll understand that your predecessors under Mr. Harper's government did not discuss them either, because that would have been irresponsible. However, we can assure you that the information provided to the House of Commons by the Prime Minister is absolutely correct.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

So we're talking about information that you can't tell us more about.

Ms. Joly, have you been personally informed of any specific incidents in the 2019 or 2021 elections?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

No.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Ms. Joly, as the Minister of Foreign Affairs, you recently released Canada's Indo-Pacific Strategy, which I have read by the way, despite what you said last week.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Congratulations. I hope you enjoyed reading it.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

There's one thing that caught my attention. It's the statement that “Canada will continue to strengthen the defence of our Canadian infrastructure and democracy.

So I assume you've been briefed on foreign interference by the Chinese communist regime in the process of implementing the strategy.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Generally speaking, we know that there are attempts of foreign interference in the country, and—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Have you been informed of any specific cases during briefings?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I would just like to finish my answer. Thank you.

Yes, I sometimes receive briefings on attempts at foreign interference by certain foreign actors. When such cases are brought to my attention, I work with my colleague Mr. Mendicino because our national security agencies have a job to do.

My job thereafter, as Minister of Foreign Affairs, is to raise these situations with the representatives of the foreign states in question to basically tell them that foreign interference is unacceptable in our country. That's what I did last time at the G20 with my counterpart Wang Yi.

As for the 2019 and 2021 elections in particular, as I said, I don't have any information on that. You've also heard from the Prime Minister on this issue.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Madam Chair, the minister also seems to want to speak, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Actually, I'm asking members to respect their time, but I'm asking the same thing of the witnesses. If we could get one answer to the short questions, that would be really good.

Perhaps you'll have a chance to respond next time, Mr. LeBlanc.

Mr. Berthold, you have the floor.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to stay within the confines of how the committee operates.

So, Madam Minister, you have had briefings. Can you explain to us why the committee didn't receive any briefing notes or other documents from your department on foreign interference in our elections, when it had asked to receive all documents related to foreign interference? Are there no documents from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development that deal with foreign interference?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

As I told you, I don't have any information about foreign interference in our elections.

However, I spoke earlier about disinformation online, which is certainly a form of foreign interference. We have seen several countries, including Russia and China, try to launch online disinformation campaigns that have an impact on our democracy. So we need to do more to counter that. We also have the rapid response mechanism, which identifies these kinds of threats.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

So I'll summarize the situation, Madam Minister.

You're the Minister of Foreign Affairs. You developed Canada's Indo-Pacific Strategy and, within your department, you haven't produced a single briefing note on the Beijing regime's interference in our elections or our democratic system. If I look at the documents that were provided to the committee, I see absolutely no information that we received from your department.

Did you talk about—

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I can answer the question, Madam Chair.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

No, it's not a question.

Madam Chair, can I have a little time for one last question?