Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 13th, 2022

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I just want to make sure, Rachel, that I understand well your question. Is that for elections or for foreign interference in general?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

It's foreign interference in elections.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Do you want to take it?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, Madam Chair—and maybe Mr. Sutherland wants to add something—Madam Blaney's question highlights a concern all of us share. This is a new and evolving space for open democracies like Canada's. The intelligence reports that some colleagues have read properly identify Canada as a target for the precise reasons that Madame Gaudreau and others raised.

It contributes to a lack of confidence and a lack of faith in these institutions, which are fundamental to the good governance of any modern democracy. That's why we have a high level of concern about all these allegations. That's why we have taken a series of what we think are responsible and appropriate steps.

We're always looking to strengthen and renew these measures. We evolved them from 2019 to 2021. None of these measures existed previously.

This committee, I know, will produce a report or suggestions for the government that will inform further actions. Madame Joly properly identified international work that we're doing with partners in the G7. Her department received additional funding in previous budgets so that we can have exactly that kind of capacity to learn about best practices from other partner democracies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Ms. Blaney, do you want to put a quick word in?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

One of the parts that wasn't answered was that if there is foreign interference and it's identified, are the people who did it charged, and who takes that on?

[Allen Sutherland]

It's important to differentiate between just the ambient level that the ministers have discussed, about there always being a base level of foreign interference.... If we were to react to every single one as a government during an election time period, you would conclude that, in fact, you didn't have a legitimate election. That would be wrong; it would be an incorrect impression.

Therefore, what is set out in the cabinet directive, I think, is important: There's a threshold that has to be hit, a level of impact or potential impact. In that case, we have a mechanism in place. It's the critical election incident public protocol panel, a name only a bureaucrat could come up with. If something were to exceed a certain level of impact, the panel of five would be empowered to step forward and explain to Canadians what happened and what they can do to avoid the consequences of it.

The fact that the panel did not step forward in either the 2019 or 2021 elections should give Canadians comfort that in fact, despite this ambient level—and I'd say, as David has, that it's low-level interference—our elections are legitimate and proper, and there isn't—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you. I know it's hard to get quick answers in, but I appreciate the attempt. We've gone over time.

We're really grateful to both ministers and their teams for making this possible.

To finish out the round, we're going to do a quick two minutes with Mr. Cooper, followed by a quick two minutes with Mr. Fergus.

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, through you, Minister LeBlanc keeps hiding behind national security. The advice of CSIS is that when it comes to foreign interference, the policy of the government be “grounded in transparency and sunlight” in order to expose that interference, and that such interference should be brought to the attention of the public. That is the advice CSIS has offered the government. We have seen anything but transparency in the way of answers to some very straightforward questions here today.

Through you, Madam Chair, going back to Minister Joly's saying she has no information, no knowledge of interference by Beijing in the 2019 or 2021 elections, we have a foreign intelligence briefing document from February 21, 2020. It doesn't make an allegation, but it provides an assessment of an effective interference network: “Investigations into activities linked to the Canadian federal election in 2019, reveal an active foreign interference...network” by Beijing.

In the 2021 election, the minister talked about the rapid response mechanism. Analysis from the rapid response mechanism reveals that there was interference by Beijing on social media platforms. In the face of all that, how can the minister claim she doesn't know, that she has no knowledge...? It's simply not credible.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Michael, I think there's something that should be made very clear to all of us. We have a shared interest in tackling foreign interference. No single person or party benefits from any form of foreign interference. Obviously, we want to make sure that our democracy works and that the will of the Canadian people is respected in every aspect of the democratic process.

Now, when it comes to foreign interference, we have national security agencies that can investigate. Afterwards, as a country, based on the rule of law, there can be prosecution. Our job is to make sure that work is being done. That's why I will do so, working with the Minister of Public Safety, and make sure also that he has the right resources so that the RCMP can do anything linked to any form of foreign actor trying to negatively influence our democratic process.

At the end of the day, when it comes to disinformation online, this is something on which I would like to be working with all of you. This is a very important issue that all democracies in the world need to tackle.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Cooper, it will have to be quick.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I'll try one more question to see if we can get an answer.

CSIS documents reveal that politicians and riding associations were targeted by foreign interference. What are the names of those politicians and riding associations?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. This question has been answered on multiple occasions. Just because Mr. Cooper wants to participate in some theatrics that are not responsible for Canadian democracy doesn't mean he's going to get an answer that doesn't exist.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We don't want answers that don't exist. We are trying to deal with a very serious issue here, so I appreciate that exchange.

Mr. Fergus, your two minutes have just turned into 3 minutes and 10 seconds, like magic.

We can do ourselves a solid and keep the questions and comments short. The run-on sentences just run on long, and it's—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, it would be the first time it's ever happened in Parliament—no run-on sentences. I've never seen that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I know. It will be “breaking news”, and that will probably be the headline.

Mr. Fergus, go ahead.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the ministers who have come here today, and the officials who are with them.

My first question is for Mr. LeBlanc.

I was not shocked, but surprised by your comments. As Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Infrastructure and Communities, you are responsible for the democratic process. That is part of your mandate. Yet you said that prior to 2015, before this government came to office, there was no robust system to investigate issues of foreign interference in our elections.

Was there really no process in place?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You are unfortunately right, Mr. Fergus.

Prior to the 2015 election, under the Conservative government, there was no system or transparency at all in this regard as there has been since the 2019 general election, which is the one after the election where we succeeded the Conservative government. The protocol is led by the senior officials responsible for the national security agencies. They have a solemn obligation to warn the public when foreign interference activity reaches a threshold where it presents a threat to Canadian democracy.

In the interest of transparency, these items are now publicly available and can be better understood by Canadians, and political parties can participate in briefings. None of this existed before our government was elected in 2015. Of course, I can't speak for Mr. Harper's government. Today, the Conservatives are certainly outraged by these allegations of interference, but when they had the opportunity to put safeguards in place, they fell short and didn't do so.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I will use my remaining time to ask a short question of Mr. Sutherland, Mr. Morrison, Ms. Denham or Mr. Epp.

If there was no process, there were certainly threats and incidents of foreign interference in our political system. This was not invented in 2015. Am I right? Why was there no process at least in the Canadian public service?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

There are 15 seconds left for a response.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

As my colleague Mr. LeBlanc said, it is unacceptable that no process was put in place earlier to ensure that there is no foreign interference in our elections. We have known for years that there are opportunities for foreign interference, and we must always be careful about that. We must also pay attention to this in any form of political party activity, including leadership contests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's excellent.

With that, Minister Joly, Minister LeBlanc and all the officials, thank you so much for your time today.

Minister LeBlanc, you've been here a few times. I really want to give a shout-out to your team for responding so quickly and making sure you get to come to your favourite committee, that being PROC.

With that, I wish you both the best of the season. Merry Christmas and all that good stuff. We look forward to seeing you again next year.

To all committee members, we'll reach out in 2023. Until then, I wish you the best. I hope you keep well and safe.

There is no meeting on Thursday, because we've been so productive and effective.

Take care. Thank you to all the support teams and all that stuff, too.

Bye for now.