Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 13th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

You may finish your comment.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

There's a lot of talk about the 2019 and 2021 elections and the reports you've done on that. Often, when we look at the facts after the fact, we ask questions to find out exactly what happened. Unfortunately, the answers we have aren't timely. We don't always catch a criminal in the act, Madam Minister. Sometimes things are discovered after the fact.

What we want to know is what you have learned since the 2019 and 2021 elections about this underground network of 11 candidates who allegedly received improper funding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Berthold.

Please respond quickly, Madam Minister.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I think my colleague is asking us questions that have already been answered.

The answer that the four of us up front can provide is that we don't have any information on the 11 alleged candidate cases. I can't be any clearer about that.

Now, with respect to Canada's Indo-Pacific Strategy, I'm glad you read it. If you go to the end of the document, in the appendices—it's always important to read the appendices as well—you'll see that there's $150 million to support our security agencies to manage the issue of foreign interference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Berthold.

Ms. Sahota, you have five minutes.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Going from where we left off, I keep hearing from Minister Joly and Minister LeBlanc that they have no information as to money going to these candidates. In the recent defence committee meeting that was referenced today, we had Ms. Thomas, who is the Prime Minister's national security adviser, as you know, state that she has “not seen money going to 11 candidates, period”.

Would you agree with that statement? Has that been conveyed to you in your briefings as well?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Like I said, I have no information about the 2019 election, nor 2021, regarding foreign interference. Therefore, I can only relate to Jody Thomas's statement and the Prime Minister's statement.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Sahota, the information I have received from the Privy Council Office and the security agencies is exactly consistent with what Jody Thomas shared at the other committee as well.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

My next question is about the briefings in which all parties take part. Different leaders have taken part, and I imagine the democratic reforms minister is informed about them.

Mr. Sutherland, you said there's a lot of co-operation in those meetings. Within those meetings, can you explain what issues have come up? How often have these meetings been happening? I assume they haven't just been happening now, post the 2019 and 2021 elections, because we have been talking about this baseline of interference that we have been aware of as a country for some time now.

Can you elaborate as to how long we have been having these types of briefings and where the discussions have evolved to?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, if you will allow it, Mr. Sutherland—who has direct personal knowledge, having participated in those discussions with political parties—can answer Madam Sahota's question. I also think Deputy Minister Morrison—having been a member of the panel in a previous election, as he indicated—can provide insight into that.

Mélanie and I are obviously not participating in those particular fora, so perhaps Mr. Sutherland and Mr. Morrison could provide very precise answers to a very good question.

[Allen Sutherland]

For briefings for the political parties, the committee—if I can call it that—occurs during the election time period. It could have them weekly or once every two weeks during the election time period. The briefings are intended to provide information on security steps parties should take, and anything we're seeing in the national security space. That's why you would have briefings from CSE. The RRM came forward and provided a briefing on the ambient level of disinformation, giving a sense of, “Here's what we're seeing, and here's what we're not seeing.”

Parties were invited to ask questions. If they had something that was, perhaps, sensitive to them, we could also have a follow-up discussion, one-on-one.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Who are the party representatives at these meetings?

[Allen Sutherland]

I'm sorry. I don't have the names right now. Typically, it was the campaign chair, as well as a CIO.

For the Conservatives, it was Walied Soliman. I think it was Anne McGrath. They were both participants.

I'm sorry. It wasn't the campaign chair for the Liberals. I don't recall who it was.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Go ahead, Mr. Morrison.

[David Morrison]

I have very little to add.

Al's group provides the support function. I was one of the briefers. I think we did it once, mid-campaign. What we were able to convey is a version of the answer I've already given.

Foreign interference is an ongoing concern, but we hadn't seen any perceptible spike up to the point of the briefing. That was the case for the rest of the 2021 election.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Would briefings taking place after the 2015 election—just like the ones we're talking about, after 2019 and 2021—have included former prime minister Harper, Prime Minister Trudeau or former minister Pierre Poilievre? At the time, he was the democratic reform minister.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I'm not the democratic institutions minister, but I can answer for him, if he likes.

I'm teasing him.

My answer is that there was no process before. We put the first process into place in order to deal with this issue, because we had real concerns. Other democracies in the world had faced issues of foreign interference.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, the answer to the question is that after the 2015 election.... None of these institutional elements were put in place by the Conservative government, so the follow-up, the review and the effort to strengthen.... We also evolved our own measures from 2019 to 2021, based in large part on the report by an expert like Jim Judd—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Those things were strengthened, but they didn't exist before.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

One thing is certain, we all agree that anything that constitutes espionage and foreign interference is a significant threat.

I have in my hands the text from the document entitled “Canada: National Security Outlook 2019”, which summarizes the threats in the context of the Canadian election. What it makes clear is that Canada is an attractive target, given the stance it takes. It also states that efforts to try to influence the election process generally have one of four main objectives. This is where this relates to the one question I am going to ask. One of the objectives of foreign interference would be to undermine the integrity of the electoral process or to cast doubt on its integrity. This is a concern and should be avoided.

My fellow citizens ask me the question: why is it that, despite all the opportunities parliamentarians have to go and gather certain pieces of information, whether it is during oral question time or elsewhere, they are not well aware of what is going on? I would like you to help my fellow citizens understand better, so that they do not lose confidence in our democracy.

We spend weeks gathering information. Is it normal that we are not aware of the whole situation? I'm talking about us, the parliamentarians, but even you, the ministers. Obviously, I will never be a minister, because Bloc Québécois members are not called upon to be ministers. I'm talking about all the parliamentarians in this House.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I thank the member for her question.

Ms. Gaudreau is absolutely right. We fully share the desire of the Bloc Québécois and other parliamentarians to strengthen the public's precious confidence in the integrity and transparency of the electoral process.

We have seen, in other countries not far from here, what can happen if the public lacks confidence in an outcome, a process or a method of counting votes. There are some very disturbing examples that have happened not too far from here, where our government has actually been called upon to intervene.

I know we are running out of time, but I want to remind you of something that is important to us. It is the decision to ask the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, chaired by our colleague Mr. McGuinty, to look into these issues. This committee has had access to this information on a highly confidential basis and can ask follow‑up questions. It places great importance on transparency. I think it is this body that can reassure our citizens. It does its job while respecting national security obligations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

I now give the floor to Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to come back because I am really fascinated by the process. I think having that process be clearer to Canadians will help us trust these systems and also be critical where we need to be.

I guess, in terms of process, what I'm trying to understand is whether, when interference is identified, any actions are taken against those who have done the interference. Is it referred on to law enforcement? In that context, as well, are there any legislative gaps that prevent action that need to be fixed?

I guess what I want to say in that last part of the question is that we're hearing clearly what the ministers and the department don't know, but what I don't understand is what you do know and how you look at what is happening to make sure that, legislatively and in terms of all our processes, those things are strengthened as we deal with this increase in foreign interference.