Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 13th, 2022

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Well, you've asked me the question regarding any form of information I would have regarding the 2019 election or even the 2021 election, and I can confirm to you that I have no information regarding this particular issue.

Of course, my comment regarding foreign interference in general is that we have a principled approach. We don't tolerate it, period.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Turnbull, six minutes go to you.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thanks to our ministers and their officials for being here today with us on this important topic. We all approach it with a great degree of concern and a sense of duty and responsibility.

Minister LeBlanc, maybe I'll start with you, with a few quick questions.

Did foreign election interference start becoming a concern in 2019?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, Mr. Turnbull raises a question. The government took positive steps after assuming office, as we've indicated, with respect to the 2019 general election. I don't have information that exists of security briefings that would have covered previous periods, but it would be naive to think that this foreign interference suddenly started after 2015.

The tactics, as colleagues have said, are more sophisticated. Some people...I think my colleague Madame Joly indicated they get emboldened, some actors, but I don't think this is a new phenomenon.

Maybe she wants to add something.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I think the difference over the years in terms of foreign interference is actually the question of disinformation online, and what happened over the last year is definitely the fact that we all use social media and all of our citizens are on social media, so how we tackle the issue of disinformation online is extremely important for our democracy, but it is an issue that we are not facing alone. We are facing this issue as our allies and partners are facing that same issue—definitely the Americans and definitely the Europeans and other democracies in the world.

Bearing that in mind, what we decided to do recently, on the margins of the General Assembly of the UN, is to launch a first disinformation online.... We will work to make a declaration on this issue, along with the Netherlands. We hope we can come up with this new declaration, which would be creating the foundation for international law when it comes to disinformation online.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you for that.

Minister LeBlanc, we've heard assertions from time to time in the House and in this committee that somehow the government has neglected to implement measures to prevent foreign interference in our elections. I think that's contrary to the truth, as far as I understand.

Do you have any documentation or perhaps an overview or an outline of the progress we've made since 2015?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, Mr. Turnbull's question is a very good one. I have before me something the Privy Council Office has prepared. It's on measures to combat foreign interference in elections. It's a 10-year review. It summarizes what I think are many of the innovative and effective actions our government has taken, starting in the 2016-17 period.

It also shows what existed before 2016, when, as we've said, the threats were somehow not present. There was the establishment of the rapid response mechanism, which came out of the G7 summit, for example, in Charlevoix; and some of the work that was done around the Paris Call for Trust and Security in Cyberspace; and obviously the “protecting democracy” plan of 2019, which I referred to earlier, around citizen preparedness, and setting up a panel—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Mr. LeBlanc, I apologize—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

If it's okay, Madam Chair—I just asked Mr. Sutherland—I'd be happy to make available to the committee this particular chart. I'll make sure, obviously, that we have it in both official languages, and I will follow up and table that with the chair. Happily, I think it sets out a rather compelling answer to your very good question.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, and I appreciate that. If that could be tabled with the committee, that would be very helpful.

We got a package of documents, as well, Minister LeBlanc, from NSIA. It's the branch package, and on page 9—and I want to read this into the record because I think it's pretty important—with regard to political parties, it says this:

In accordance with the Protocol, cleared members of the political parties also received routine threat updates. We received positive feedback by the parties on this experience, most notably from the [Conservative Party of Canada].

It actually says “CPC”. What's interesting about this is that I keep hearing this narrative coming from the official opposition that somehow this is a revelation to them, that at this moment in time they're concerned about election interference, when in fact it seems as though they've been briefed on these credible threats from time to time, quite regularly.

Could either of the ministers speak to that and how regularly that happens?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Very briefly, Madam Chair, I can speak to exactly what Mr. Turnbull said. We thought it was important for major political parties to be security-cleared and to have access to this information. This is about protecting our democracy and ensuring that important political institutions in our democracy, like the Conservative Party of Canada, have access to this information and can take the necessary steps to protect their own infrastructure in the political space.

It's also important that the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, which includes members, obviously, of this House and of the other place, also be briefed by intelligence officials, and we think it's important that they, too, be kept up to date as part of ensuring that everybody has a line of sight on the very robust measures, Mr. Turnbull, that you referred to that our government is taking.

Perhaps Mélanie has a brief comment.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

All political parties in the last election were briefed on this issue. Maybe David Morrison, my DM—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm sorry, but when you hear the beep, it means time's up. It's really awkward for me to have to do this. I would appreciate it if we could keep things moving.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for helping us shed light on this. The people listening to us are particularly concerned about disinformation, cyber-attacks and all that.

In the 2019 documents we received from the Privy Council Office, there are various summaries that I would like more explanation on. One is the issue of the panel that was formed. In 2019, it was reported that the expert panel that conducted monitoring activities on a weekly basis did not observe any activity that met the threshold for a public announcement or for the activity to affect Canada's electoral capacity.

I want to focus on the notion of a threshold. I'd like you to clarify that for me. What does it take for a public announcement to be necessary?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, I would first like to make a few comments. I know that Ms. Joly will also want to add her comments.

Ms. Gaudreau has just raised an important issue. As we said, there are always people who try to interfere, intervene or meddle in elections. During an election period, the expert panel, chaired by the Clerk of the Privy Council and composed of senior officials of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and other departments and agencies with security responsibilities, has the discretionary power to publicly warn Canadians of interference activities if it deems those activities to reach a certain threshold where it becomes in the public interest to do so. That decision is based entirely on the judgment of that panel. Understandably, in an election context, it isn't up to a minister of an outgoing government to make that kind of decision. We deliberately gave that responsibility to that panel.

These experts assess a series of factors. For example, they determine the reliability of the information, assess the potential for multi-constituency impact and determine whether the activity in question is regional or national. They assess a series of factors, independently of government, and decide whether Canadians should be notified of interference activities.

As we know very well, the good news is that this situation hasn't happened in the last two elections.

Ms. Joly, would you like to add anything in response to Ms. Gaudreau's question?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Certainly.

I'd like to thank Ms. Gaudreau for her question.

We all care about protecting our democracy. It was important for us to set up this system.

Basically, every time there's an election, it's no longer the cabinet and the duly elected government that intervenes. It's the public service that provides the transition during elections.

At the time, the process was put in place because there was a real concern about disinformation online. That's why I mentioned earlier, in response to a question from my colleague Mr. Turnbull, what disinformation campaigns could influence the vote of citizens.

As for the threshold issue, it's left to the discretion of the public service. They are able to make informed decisions based on information from security agencies and publicly available information.

Mr. Morrison, would you like to add anything?

[David Morrison]

Yes, thank you.

As I said before, I was on the panel during the 2021 election, but not during the 2019 election. In a way, we were lucky.

As I said before, we didn't see a spike, so the issue of the thresholds didn't really come into play.

We certainly had been briefed, and we had done scenario playing. However, in both elections, the panel functioned as designed and didn't have to confront the circumstances of a threshold.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Since I have only one minute left, I'll move quickly. In fact, I'm going to explore the task force a little more.

We were also provided with a summary of lessons learned. We all know that here we have the privilege of having a paper ballot, which helps prevent any kind of situation that could influence the outcome of an election. There is also a lot of talk about transparency and awareness.

I understand that, since 2019, the number of reported foreign interference cases hasn't increased, but what lessons have been learned and what recommendations have been offered? Things are still evolving at a rapid pace when it comes to disinformation and cyber-attacks.

I think you have 30 seconds left to answer my question.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I can give you my point of view, and then my colleague can respond.

In terms of foreign affairs, disinformation is really a concern within the G7, in particular. That's why we set up Canada's rapid response mechanism, or RRM. It's used by other G7 allies. This mechanism checks for trends in online disinformation. I think the issue of online disinformation is a contemporary issue that we need to address. That's why we decided to show leadership and work with the Netherlands on this issue.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, I'd like to add something to Ms. Joly's response.

Ms. Gaudreau is absolutely right that we need to learn from this. These are new experiences for the government's national security apparatus.

The protocol requires an independent review by an expert. That's why, following the 2019 election, I chose former deputy minister Jim Judd to conduct this review. He submitted his report to the Prime Minister and me. We then forwarded that report to the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, which publicly released a version of the lessons learned.

The good news is that the same exercise was initiated after the 2021 election. I have already mandated Morris Rosenberg, a former deputy minister in the Departments of Justice and Foreign Affairs, among others, to do this work. In fact, I'm meeting with him on Friday of this week. If possible, we will share his findings with you, as we should.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and I thank all the witnesses for being here today.

One of the things that's very concerning about the story about the 11 candidates is the fact that it has created a great deal of distrust across Canada in our systems, and that can never be underestimated. I think creating a sense of assurance that the systems work is very important, and I would like to see a bit more of that, because people see these things and they of course have a reaction.

Could you explain what the rationale is for not releasing the names of the individuals who were targeted by foreign interference?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

First and foremost, thank you, Rachel, for your question. I think it's really important that we all agree that this should not be a question that is politicized, because at the end of the day, like you mentioned, it's about the trust of Canadians in our institutions and in democracy.

As I mentioned, we don't have information about these 11 candidates. The Prime Minister has mentioned it, his national security adviser.... I, the foreign minister, don't have any information about this.

Of course, we take very seriously this media story, but at the same time, I'm giving you under oath the information I have, which is that I don't have any form of information on this.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

In terms of process, were the candidates aware that they were targeted? Do you know that?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Madam Chair, perhaps Al Sutherland would like to add something, because it's an important question.

Mélanie said it very well. I share Ms. Blaney's view that trust and public confidence are essential. These state actors, these malevolent actors, seek exactly to undermine that trust.

The question is very appropriate. That's why, as much as possible, the actions of the government, and more particularly the national security agencies that are responsible for ensuring that the democratic processes are free and fair, need to be able to assure Canadians that's the case, as did Madam Thomas, the national security adviser to the Prime Minister, and a number of other officials.

Like Madame Joly, I don't have this supposed list of 11 candidates. I have seen that in the media. In my discussions with security officials, people didn't produce lists of these names, but if individual candidates may ex post facto have been the subject of an attempt, I don't know how or if they're informed of that. Maybe Al Sutherland or somebody else has information.