Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 7th, 2023

[Dr. Charles Burton]

I think that certainly the legislation is by no means directed towards one group. It's called “foreign”, so any foreign power that's involved in trying to interfere in Canadian affairs by providing benefits to people in a position of trust in the civil service or Parliament should be made accountable. It's not that you would simply declare benefits that you've received from one specific foreign state, but from any foreign state, so it's even. The resistance to this idea—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mrs. Blaney, you have two minutes and 45 seconds.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

The question I'm going to ask this time is for Mr. Mulroney.

I found it interesting. You talked about the four points that you thought were priorities. Of course, there was the registry for the foreign agents and then having Canadian police participate more in ethnic communities. I believe I got that right. I'm just curious about how those two things could potentially intersect, because I've heard things from different ethnic communities—for example, the Uighur community—that have brought forward concerns or tried to bring forward concerns to the RCMP and police, and it's like they just get passed around. Nobody really knows how to address that issue, but the threat is real in Canada.

I'm just wondering how those two things could coincide and support one another so that we have more supports for people in our own country who are under those threats that you both have mentioned so clearly.

[David Mulroney]

I don't disagree with Mr. Mendicino's idea of a tool box. We need the registry, but we need other things, and I think we need to train our police to be more aware of what's happening.

The work that Charles is doing in going into the Chinese language press and hearing what people are saying and doing is more important than we think. We think that's obvious, but a lot of people aren't aware of what's being said here in Canada, so we need to have police who can do that, who can understand the pressures that these people are under. Again, they are people who have every right to expect the protections of the police instead of being told to go check with the Chinese police, as if they somehow don't deserve our protection. We need to do a much better job, but I see that as a separate priority itself.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I guess when you look at all the things we're talking about—the threats to our political systems, the influence that particular groups can have—I'm just wondering.... You stated very clearly that we need to have that foreign agents registry put into place, make that stance and then get onto the consulting.

To both of you, who would be at the top of the line to do the consulting with to make sure that this happens? What will that action do to impact China and what it's doing in Canada?

[Dr. Charles Burton]

The Canadian Coalition on Human Rights in China is an organization that I've been advising since 2005. Coordinated by Amnesty International and consisting of Tibetans, diaspora groups, Uighurs, Falun Gong, democracy activists and many others, they have been requesting a proper government agency that would address their harassment by agents of a foreign state. There are some Hong Kong activists who get threatened with rape, young women who really should be able to have someone there who would address this and give them a sense that they're safe again.

In terms of foreign influence, it would be important to reassure these Chinese groups and other groups that the legislation is not requiring that they all register with the state and that they all have to report all of their connections with China. It's about people in positions of trust who are receiving benefits from a foreign state and who should publicly declare it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We'll now do a quick two-minute round, starting with Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Burton, CSIS advised the Prime Minister that when it comes to foreign interference, the policy of government should be “grounded in transparency and sunlight”. Repeatedly throughout the fall, we have seen talking points from this government that the 2019 and 2021 elections were free and fair and that they weren't compromised. Then they rely on or cite the independent election panel findings, even though it was the finding of the election panel that the “overall” integrity of the election was not compromised—something very different.

In the face of that, is it your opinion that this government is being transparent with Canadians about the degree of interference from Beijing in our elections?

[Dr. Charles Burton]

I think CSIS, as compared with the intelligence services of our like-minded allies, is much less forthcoming about what's going on. Therefore, we need more information about what they know about what sort of interference may have taken place. I don't know the basis for the judgment that everything was okay and didn't affect the election. I'd like more detailed information to be able to make that assessment.

You know, when you look at something like the balloon incident, on February 15 the entire Congress will be getting a security briefing on this matter. I would like to see the entire House of Commons get security briefings so that our members of Parliament have a better understanding of the truth of matters and can form legislation and make decisions accordingly.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Go ahead, Mr. Mulroney.

[David Mulroney]

I think the bar is way too low when you say that it has to affect the outcome of the election. Affecting one constituency disenfranchises Canadians and is a big win for China. Interfering in 11 is a major, major aggressive step by China.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

So the threshold is too high.

[David Mulroney]

It's far too low.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Sorry. It's far too low. That's right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Cooper and Mr. Mulroney.

Ms. Sahota, you have up to two minutes.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the panellists today. I think you've provided really great information. Like me, probably many members around this table are really intrigued by the idea of implementing a registry not only for foreign actors but also for disinformation. Those ideas have both been presented to this committee before as well.

What I do want to know from you, though, is this. Canada has a diverse community, with huge diasporas from many countries. We've heard from CSIS about countries playing an active role in interference in our elections. However, I again quote the Chief Electoral Officer that with the threshold we currently have, any interference that has been happening for many past elections has not risen to the point of having a material impact on the election.

Having said that, I still want to know your opinion. I heard some comments about looking at images of fundraisers and seeing Chinese faces and making the assumption that perhaps those Chinese faces could have been influenced by foreign state actors. Don't we have to be a little bit careful, living in a country with so many different multicultural communities, that we don't level accusations and don't hinder the participation of communities from those different minority groups in the electoral process?

[Dr. Charles Burton]

I can take that one.

At that particular fundraiser, the presence of a representative of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference raised flags for me, because that's the coordinating body for United Front Work, but I absolutely agree with you. In our country, we want to have full representation of all of the ethnic groups that make up our nation, and we want to encourage more Canadians of Chinese origin to actively participate in our politics and represent their communities.

However, these representatives have to be committed to liberal democracy and Canada, and not have potential mixed loyalties to what they refer to as the motherland, which is not Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Okay.

Mr. Johnson, I see your hand is up. I'm sorry, because we've run out of time, but if you want to provide us with something in writing, I am sure committee members would welcome that—and from all witnesses—so please do not feel that the conversation has to end. You can provide information to us.

I want to thank you, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Burton, for giving us your time and for being with us today.

Committee members, really quickly, we had a reception today. We'll have an informal reception on Thursday, which means we've brought a couple of snacks in for our guests. I want to make sure that it is suitable for the clerk to be able to order those snacks so that we have them available again on Thursday.

Your motion has been passed for your budget. Brilliant.

With that, have a great day. See you on Thursday. The meeting is adjourned.