Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 23rd, 2023

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Warkentin, with respect to the changes made in the final map, the commission has noted two things. One is the fact that Peace River—Westlock has seen a much slower rate of population growth, whereas the Grand Prairie area has seen a much faster rate of population growth. Second is the geographic size, in particular of Peace River—Westlock, or both ridings, in fact.

You addressed the latter point, but you may want to elaborate on that and address the first point with respect to population growth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Do you want this coming out of your next round? You were asking for two rounds.

What happens is that we go back and forth, and when we respect the amount of time one speaks and one answers.... I will note that Mr. Boissonnault was probably entitled to about 20 more seconds before he was cut off. I do take this role very seriously, and I do take this work very seriously.

Mr. Cooper, would you like an answer now or would you like to see if you get a second round?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

We'll wait for a.... Well, 20 seconds.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

I believe it's very important to consider the redistribution proposals. The first one actually better reflects the room for growth for the regions that are most likely to grow, whereas the second proposal actually puts the riding of Grand Prairie into a higher population number, which obviously doesn't allow for the growth that we expect in that region. Grand Prairie has been the growth centre and will continue to be the growth centre.

I believe putting it at a lower number, like the first proposal did, is the right thing to do. The commission got it as good as they could in the first report, I believe.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Warkentin.

I will now go to Ms. Sahota.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Boissonnault.

You spoke a little about community organizations that border the Yellowhead Highway. Would you be able to share more or reflect a little more on why keeping the highway as a boundary would be important to these organizations?

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Just to give colleagues a little context about community leagues, they were founded around the same time the city was founded, in about 1904. In the city of Edmonton we have 160 registered associations that call themselves community leagues. They're all volunteer-run, with about $100 million plus in assets, with community gardens and what have you.

In my riding of Edmonton Centre, there are 26 community leagues. If you take a look along the Yellowhead freeway, there are 18 community leagues, the entire length of the Yellowhead freeway, that use it as the north to south boundary. Nine community leagues south and nine community leagues north are using the Yellowhead as the boundary.

How did community leagues grow? They grew around their actual neighbourhood. The community leagues themselves are saying that this is a man-made geographic border. If you look at the maps we sent and that I know you all have, it literally is like a man-made river that runs through the city. It's a river of traffic. It's a river of goods. I know what it's like when I travel east or west in that riding. You actually have to make a conscious decision as to which road you're going to take to get through the tracks. You're not turning on every street corner to get through the tracks, because otherwise the trains wouldn't run. It is a geographic barrier.

If you look at postal codes, Ms. Sahota, they use the Yellowhead as north and south boundaries for postal codes. For businesspeople, if you look at the Kingsway business improvement association, which is in my riding on the north side of Edmonton Centre, the Yellowhead is the natural border there. It is a natural border. It's a community border. You don't see kids crossing that highway to go to school. It doesn't make any sense. There would be not a safety issue but just a community of identity issue.

In that sense, it's our contention that from a community identity perspective and a community of interest perspective, as Mr. Chahal said, the northern boundary should be maintained as Yellowhead.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Boissonnault.

Mr. Chahal, I want to know a little more about the objection you're making here today. Is this an objection you made previously to the commission, or is this a new one? Have things drastically changed between versions one and two of the commission's report?

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Ms. Sahota.

In version one, they did not use Airport Trail as a defined marker. They cut out other communities. After the objections made by community members, they've included those. However, in doing that, they cut out another part of the community.

In their original objection, the community asked to keep the entire community association together. Those are the communities south of that blue line—Airport Trail—because they are one community. They're the same community association. They share the same rec centre, schools and places of worship. They are separated from the new riding by swaths of development land. We don't know when that will be developed. There's no access to that middle yellow area from Calgary Skyview. There's a highway in between.

I think the commission was trying to adjust population variances, not taking into account that Calgary Skyview, as proposed, is probably already at the population variance. In the next decade, it will become much higher, because of the tremendous growth northeast Calgary is seeing. That's clear with everything we see on the ground and in working with colleagues at other levels of government.

I want to note, once again, that the provincial boundary is Airport Trail. It's clearly defined, because there's a highway dividing northeast Calgary.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Is there anything else you'd like to add about the communities of interest?

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

The only other piece I'd add is this: There is precedence, in other parts of the country, for the variation. I think this would provide northeast Calgary with a lot of growth. That community would probably equal out, if it hasn't already done so, in population variance.

The only other piece is on the objection to riding names. I didn't get a chance to talk about it. In the original submission made, Calgary McKnight, the airport was not included, and now it is, so I would suggest Calgary McKnight be called “Calgary Skyview”. The new riding of Calgary Skyview, as defined, would be called “Calgary Stoney” or “Calgary Country Hills” to better reflect the communities represented on both sides of the Deerfoot Trail. Country Hills is a major thoroughfare in central northeast Calgary. That would be a better representation of the new riding, or “Calgary Stoney,” because Stoney Trail runs through it.

That would be my second objection for community identity, in order to better identify the communities and help folks know who their representatives are—how they're best represented, moving forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's excellent. Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Therrien.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to welcome our colleagues, who have explained their position on the redistribution to the committee. I am very pleased to hear their views.

My first questions are for my colleague Mr. Boissonault.

I come from pretty far away from this region. I am trying to understand the situation based on the maps I have in front of me. Honestly, it's a part of the country that I don't know and I should absolutely go and visit one day, if you invite me, of course.

Let me know if I am mistaken.

You want to remove part of the proposed area of the riding: Athlone, Calder and Kensington.

How many electors does that represent?

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I don't have the exact figures for the three communities, but I can tell you that the balance of these three community leagues or neighbourhoods is equivalent to Laurier Heights and Parkview. That would make it possible to keep communities with the same interests together.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Right.

That is why you say that some communities would be left out, but we would get other communities elsewhere to make up the number of electors. So that answers my question.

I have another question I'd like to ask.

In Quebec, we don't have community leagues. I don't see exactly what that means. Can you explain it in 30 seconds?

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

In the good old days in Alberta, going back to 1904 or 1905, people identified with a certain neighbourhood. Mine, which is Inglewood, but also Westmount and Garneau, are different communities that adopted a name to identify themselves. The people said they wanted to have their own community identity. So they took over the funding for these leagues. Over the years, they created community leagues and managed facilities and community halls. Some community leagues have lovely facilities with community gardens and so on.

In my own riding, there are 26 community leagues, and there are 160 in the whole city.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Right, thank you.

I imagine the development underway at the former airport in your region represents potential demographic growth. Have the commissioners taken that into account? You can answer yes or no, but what is your opinion on this subject?

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

That is a question you would have to ask the commissioners. According to the City of Edmonton's figures, the Blatchford project represents potential demographic growth of 30,000 people. If the calculation turns out to be accurate, that could mean moving the border of Edmonton Centre to 142nd Street Northwest, and maybe farther, taking in even more of the riding.

In view of that, it is obvious that the area of Edmonton Centre will be reduced. We are not there yet, since the houses and residential buildings are in the process of being built, but in ten or 20 years it will have a major impact on Edmonton Centre.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chahal, I am pleased to meet you.

What is your proposal concerning the municipal councillors who are included in your riding? Do those people support you? Do you feel you are representing your corner well?

We noted that when you requested a meeting, no member from Calgary expressed their support for your proposal. I would therefore like to hear from you both on the position of the municipal councillors in your community and on what the councillors for the communities around you think about it.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Monsieur Therrien, for your question.

In the objections, I think both counsellors objected to the original proposal. Both would also argue that clear boundaries be defined by keeping communities of interest together and keeping these major roadways as the boundaries between the communities. I have three city councillors whom I overlay right now, and several MLAs. There are four of them.

As I mentioned, at the provincial boundaries there's the Airport Trail. That major highway is the boundary between the two provincial ridings. Through city council, this goes through the riding of one constituency of a city councillor.

The new Skyview riding would have several city councillors, because there's another highway that intersects them. The main point made by our former mayor, Mayor Nenshi, and others was to keep community organizations, associations and leagues together, and not separate them. What this new proposal has done is take one community, which has a strong relationship and interest with its community members, and divide it. It puts it in a riding with no direct connection, but also a big gap in how to connect with those community members and representation moving forward.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

What you're telling me is clear, but I still don't know this part of the country very well.

What reason do you think the commissioners have for doing this and dividing a community in half, as you say?

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

That's a very good question.

It's all based on population. Using the 2021 census data, they aligned the population. This part of the city has seen tremendous growth. The new Calgary Skyview is the fastest-growing riding. I would argue that over the last two and half years, it's probably seen 30,000 new members.

It's just to balance the population. That's why there's a number of precedents across the country. I think if you did the census today, you would see it very closely aligned, based on the real numbers of the day.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's excellent. Thank you so much.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mrs. Blaney, you have six minutes.