Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 23rd, 2023

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I thank all of you for being here today to talk about this really important issue.

Before I ask questions, and I will get to them, I want to read a notice of motion for the committee. I'm hoping to read it in, and we can have a chat about it later on, because I really want to get into the questions. I just wanted to let the committee know as soon as possible. I've made sure, of course, that our clerk has a copy. They can be handed out for you guys to reflect on.

My motion is simply that the committee, as part of its study on foreign election interference, invite the independent special rapporteur on foreign interference, David Johnston, to appear before the committee no later than the week of April 24.

I'll leave it at that. I'm happy to have conversations later on.

If I can, I'll start with you first, Mr. Chahal. It seems to me that your suggested change would give the proposed Calgary McKnight riding an inordinately large population. In fact, it would be the biggest in the province.

Could you give us any suggestions as to what areas might be removed from McKnight to account for this, or if that's part of your plan?

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

It's not. The Calgary Skyview riding now represents over 160,000 individuals, based on the 2021 census. I believe it's much higher. All we've asked for is that those communities be kept together. If there is a larger variance, community interest and identity are more of a concern than the population. The new riding of Calgary Skyview is the fastest-growing riding. It's already probably grown by 30,000 over the last two and a half years. I don't see the population variance being a concern. With the adjustments made, I believe they are now probably equal.

There's no new growth in the new Calgary McKnight, or it's very minimal. All the new growth in Calgary, as you see in the swaths of land provided in the maps, is in the north centre and northeast of Calgary. With newcomers coming, I would anticipate Calgary seeing about 30,000-plus newcomers per year, with 40%-50% residing in this northeast, north centre quadrant.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Mr. Boissonnault, perhaps I will go to you second.

It seems to me that you argued that the Laurier Heights and Parkview neighbourhoods should be added back to Edmonton Centre, because they share community halls with the Crestwood neighbourhood inside the riding. I have been there, but I am not an expert on all these neighbourhoods, so I apologize if I am mistaking any of this.

However, all three of these neighbourhoods have separate community halls and community leagues. They are all in the Edmonton community league district E, but district E is split in half between the proposed Edmonton Centre and Edmonton West.

Could you explain why the community leagues in Laurier Heights and Parkview are connected to Crestwood and not the adjacent neighbourhoods of Lynnwood, Jasper Park and West Jasper Sherwood?

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

That's a good question, and thank you for your work on this committee. I know you do a lot of good work on this committee.

What I'll say about Parkview, Crestwood and Laurier Heights is that there's a particular development that's happened in that part of Edmonton. It's the south part of the riding, which follows the river. Some of that is population growth. Some of these community leagues are in the wealthier areas. There's fierce identity within community leagues.

Each of them, over time, was able to raise enough money to create their own community league. For example, in Parkview, our government was able to provide some money to upgrade a 50-year-old rink, which is shared by three different schools. They actually have kids coming in from different parts of the leagues to use that shared rink. The curling rink that's in Crestwood, for example, is the curling rink for the whole south part of the riding.

What you've seen over time is not just a development of the community league. The city analyzed the needs in each community league. That's a contiguous part of Edmonton Centre. It has been since 2004. It would offset the 10,000 people who would be represented by adding Calder, Athlone and Kensington on the north side. That part could become part of Edmonton-North West; it would keep what has now been moved out of the riding in the riding, and you'd have a contiguous whole.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm curious. Adding Laurier Heights and Parkview would reduce the population of Edmonton West by about 6,000, if I got that correctly, and then the proposed Edmonton West riding is already below the population quota.

Do you have any other areas to suggest that might be added to Edmonton West to account for this?

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I don't have any other suggestions for Edmonton West.

Following up on what Mr. Chahal is saying, we see population growth taking place across what is now the riding of Edmonton Centre, and those areas of Edmonton West and Edmonton-North West will continue to grow. We would be within the population boundary, plus or minus 5%, of 115,000 in Edmonton Centre. We have looked at the regional map, and by adding the riding that is coming to the region, we think that all those ridings would have the growth they need to be within that, plus or minus 5%.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I understand that the commission doesn't actually look at future growth of the population, but I thought I would just add that.

I have only a few seconds.

Mr. Soroka, what is the value of trying to keep all of Yellowhead County in one riding, when doing so requires splitting up other counties? Could you help me understand that?

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Currently, the counties I'm changing are already divided up, so all it's doing is moving the boundaries in different areas. It also gives more unity to Yellowhead as one entire county. The other thing is that some of the boundaries the commission used were quite disjointed and very hard to follow when you were trying to campaign.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's excellent. Thank you so much.

We don't have a lot of time left before the next panel.

We're going to go for a couple of minutes to Mrs. Kusie, and then we'll go to the Liberals.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, fellow Albertans, for being here today.

Mr. Chahal, I'm going to read from the commission report:

The Commission received...representations...urging it to keep the northeast sector of Calgary together in two electoral districts, Calgary Skyview and the renamed Calgary East, consisting of closely connected communities with shared interests and priorities. Some argued that the Commission should base the electoral districts on the City of Calgary municipal wards, of which there are 14. However, the Commission had only 11 electoral districts with which to work, making compromise inevitable. The Commission had proposed three electoral districts for the northeast.... The two electoral districts recommended by the groups would be located east of Deerfoot Trail—

Interestingly, it's not on the Conservative side of Deerfoot Trail, in the west.

—north of Glenmore Trail...and bounded by Calgary's eastern and northern...limits.... However, the recommended changes could not be accomplished without making substantial alterations to the boundaries of many other electoral districts in Calgary.... For these reasons, the Commission did not accept the groups' recommendations.

However, the Commission has made some modifications in response to the groups' concerns. It has [as you mentioned] added the Calgary International Airport, an important economic hub with close ties to adjacent communities, to the Calgary McKnight...district. It has also modified the boundary between the Calgary Skyview and the Calgary McKnight electoral districts by adding more of the densely populated—

What I'm hearing is that you went to the commission with a proposal. They rejected the proposal. The changed information, as Ms. Sahota indicated, is now information you would like to change again, in this second iteration. I see that the electoral commission listened to your requests, but it is not responding to them, perhaps, the way you would have hoped. It is new information, but new information provided by the commission.

I also want to address your comments about the 14.3% variance, which, as my colleagues mentioned, is the highest. Two you mentioned, Dartmouth and Kingston and the Islands, are large rural swaths that do not have the flexibility of an urban environment.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Chahal, that was two minutes.

That was spoken very fast for interpretation, when I already said, one time, that we need to be mindful of this. I find it discouraging and disappointing. I have many other words that have not been heard. I hope people are listening to the words coming out of my mouth.

Mr. Chahal, I'm going to offer you one minute to answer.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for the comments.

I didn't make a submission in the first one. Community organizations did that on their own, for the best interests of northeast Calgary. What they objected to was splitting up northeast Calgary communities. They asked that the community of Saddle Ridge—which was split up in the first one—not be split up. They added a part in but took another part out, in order to balance the numbers and variation.

In Alberta and across Canada, there are variations. As Ms. Blaney identified, we don't look at future growth; nor does the commission. We consider a variation. I believe the most important part of this committee.... The work it has done to keep communities of interest together is a priority. It's a priority to provide good representation. I think everybody, including the provincial boundaries, one of which is represented by the NDP, the other by the UCP.... They also have Airport Trail as a natural boundary.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for that.

Go ahead, Mrs. Romanado.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

Before I begin, I will be leaving some time to my colleague, so could your answers be short, please?

The one thing I want to mention, Madam Chair, that surprised me.... I read all these commission reports, and something sticks out from this one. It's on page 27 and a matter of concern. There seems to have been “a calculated effort” by an MP “to persuade the Commission to maintain the existing electoral boundaries”. I'm just flagging that, because that's the only province I see this in. I know the analysts also highlighted this. It's something a little concerning.

My question is for Mr. Chahal and Mr. Boissonnault.

We heard from our colleagues, here, that there was support from other parties for their presentation. Question number 6 actually asked that. I know we have two different parties here on the panel. I wonder whether you could, very quickly, let us know whether you are in agreement with the colleagues who have presented here, today. Could you very quickly say yes or no, in terms of their presentations? We want to know whether other MPs are in agreement.

Mr. Soroka, could you let me know whether you're in agreement with the two colleagues next to you?

[Gerald Soroka, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I'm going to have to plead ignorance. I'm not that familiar with the communities of Edmonton and Calgary, even though my boundary is now going to be touching Calgary.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Okay.

Go ahead, Mr. Chahal.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

I would say yes, because everybody's clearly shown that they want to keep communities of interest and identity together, and I think that should be a priority. I think everybody's talked about that.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Boissonnault.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I support my colleagues on this panel.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

That's perfect.

Go ahead, Mr. Warkentin.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB]

I wanted to make sure that both Arnold Viersen and I were here together, because the changes we're proposing affect just the ridings that the two of us represent. No other ridings are impacted. We came here together to demonstrate solidarity on that.

I don't believe that my colleagues who border some of these other members have been consulted with regard to these changes, and I can verify that they don't support them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Go ahead.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I would point out, again, that I don't know much about the areas in Edmonton or Calgary. However, I would point out that Mr. Warkentin and I, even under the new boundaries, have to drive through different portions of each other's ridings to get to other portions of our ridings. I would note that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm sorry, Mr. Viersen. Based on what the question was, the answers are not coming close, but the first three I will mark high.

Mr. Turnbull, you have one minute.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Mr. Chahal, I wanted to ask you a question. I noticed in your submission that you also included some comments around a name change. I wanted to get your perspective on that and why it's so important.