Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 60 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

The committee is meeting today to continue its study of the Report of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec.

In the first hour, we will be hearing from Mr. Stéphane Bergeron, MP, Montarville, Claude DeBellefeuille, MP, Salaberry—Suroît , Jean-Denis Garon, MP, Mirabel.

You will each have four minutes for an opening statement after which will proceed to questions from the Committee.

Mr. Bergeron, the floor is yours.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, dear colleagues.

At the time of the last review of the federal electoral map, I was a member of the Quebec National Assembly. The former Mayor of Sainte-Julie had told me at the time that apart from the fact that she did not feel included in this new riding, that she wanted nothing to do with the name "Montarville".

My request is therefore not an opposition per se to the report of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec, but rather a proposal to change the name of the riding of Montarville so that it better reflects its constituent communities and residents.

In terms of its toponymy, the name “Montarville” primarily refers to a former seigneury and, more precisely, to the city of Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville, meaning it covers only part of the riding. While “Montarville” is quite appropriate for the name of the provincial electoral district given its constituent municipalities and the fact that Boucherville (which is not part of the federal electoral district) and Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville are crossed and connected by Montarville Boulevard/Street, this name does, however, seem much less appropriate for the federal riding.

I believe the federal riding could have a name that is more inclusive for its constituent localities and residents, especially considering that the commission’s proposed amendments include adding a significant part of the City of Carignan, which did not support this transfer to the federal riding of Montarville.

Mont Saint-Bruno is the one geographic feature shared by Saint-Basile-le-Grand, Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville and Sainte-Julie, the three municipalities in the federal riding. This landmark can easily be seen throughout the new federal riding.

Standing high above the Montérégie, Mont Saint-Bruno is a distinctive feature of the riding’s landscape. It is home to Mont-Saint-Bruno National Park, the busiest of all of Quebec’s national parks, and backs onto a popular ski resort. It is therefore widely known far beyond the boundaries of the federal riding.

I believe that a name change is essential to create a sense of belonging that can be shared by all of the riding’s residents, especially in light of the commission’s proposed changes. I also believe that it would be appropriate to add the name “L’Acadie” to “Mont-Saint-Bruno” to acknowledge the citizens of the City of Carignan who will be incorporated into the federal riding currently known as Montarville.

The L’Acadie River runs through the City of Carignan and part of the City of Saint-Basile-le-Grand. Moreover, the name “L’Acadie” refers to the historic region of Canada whose sons and daughters, following the Acadian Deportation, played an important role in developing the region of Quebec now known as the Montérégie

For the aforementioned reasons, I propose that the federal riding of Montarville, as amended in the proposal of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec, be named the riding of “Mont-Saint-Bruno—L’Acadie” (or “L’Acadie—Mont-Saint-Bruno”). This new name would have the added benefit of differentiating the federal riding from the provincial riding, which has substantially different boundaries

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

We will now continue with Ms. DeBellefeuille.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for hearing the various opinions that are against the changes proposed by the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec.

I took part in the public consultation held in Salaberry-de-Valleyfield on October 3, 2022. The members of the commission heard the views of nine participants.

To put things in context, in the initial proposal published last summer, the current riding of Salaberry—Suroît would undergo two significant changes.

First, the riding's boundaries would be substantially changed. At the eastern boundary of my riding, seven municipalities would be moved to the future riding of Châteauguay—Les Jardins-de-Napierville. The western boundary would add two municipalities. There was also a proposed name change for the riding, from Salaberry—Suroît to Salaberry—Suroît—Soulanges.

Further to my discussions with a number of mayors, the regional county municipalities, or RCMs, and the community development corporations affected by the boundary changes, the proposal, while not unanimous, was close to consensus.

There was some opposition from the community of Pointe-des-Cascades. Their current MP, although aware of their argument and unhappy with the commission's decision, did not file an objection today.

In short, I feel that the boundaries of the riding are acceptable. What I am opposed to is the suggested name for the riding. As I mentioned, the initial proposal was to name it Salaberry—Suroît—Soulanges.

The addition of Soulanges to the name of the riding I represent, and in particular the removal of Soulanges from the future riding of Vaudreuil, was welcomed by everyone. That amounted to correcting a mistake made by the commission in 2012, because much of the Soulanges area is in Salaberry—Suroît. So every now and then, electoral boundaries commissions can get it wrong.

However, in the commission's recent report, there is a name change once again. The new proposed name is Beauharnois—Soulanges. In other words, Salaberry—Suroît would become Beauharnois—Soulanges. It's a complete change, a major one, which was nevertheless not submitted for public consultation.

Concretely, Salaberry—Suroît disappears completely, leaving only Beauharnois—Soulanges. I respectfully point out that the commission did not not give due consideration to the comments made by citizens at the public consultation. My view is that the consensus would be to retain the name Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, because Beauharnois, Soulanges and Huntingdon are the names of my colleagues ridings in the National Assembly of Quebec. It would make things clearer for the residents.

The name "Salaberry" is also important because it refers to Salaberry-de-Valleyfield, the largest city within the proposed new riding.

I also gave the clerk letters of support from the reeve of the Haut-Saint-Laurent RCM and the mayor of Salaberry-de-Valleyfield, both of whom also requested the same change to the future federal riding.

Furthermore, I approached the Grand Chief of the Akwesasne Mohawk community, the Quebec sector of which I proudly represent, and he did not indicate an interest in adding an indigenous term to the name of our riding.

I'd like to conclude by giving my full support to the MPs from eastern Quebec who came here to testify last week, because the commission is still proposing to do away with Avignon—La Métis—Matane—Matapédia. The stance taken on this by eastern Quebec MPs is eloquent, and they are fully justified in opposing this change.

You are aware, Madam Chair, of the fact that I represent one of the most populous ridings in Quebec. Nevertheless, I agree with the request from the municipalities in this region, the local RCMs, the elected members of the Quebec National Assembly, and of course the four federal MPs from eastern Quebec.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Ms. DeBellefeuille.

The floor is yours, Mr. Garon.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Esteemed colleagues, thank you for having me today.

In the first version of the electoral boundaries map proposed by the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec, the City of Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines remained entirely in the Mirabel riding. Afterwards, following various consultations, there was a second version of the electoral boundaries map in which, to our great surprise, the municipality of Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines was completely splintered from the City of Mirabel.

I can tell you that this new version of the map was very poorly received in Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines, in particular because there were no consultations with the people of Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines.

As you will see, the mayor of Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines, the provincial member for Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines, and much of the population of Mirabel, who are clearly not of my political stripe, supported my request to return Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines to the Mirabel riding. Otherwise, an important community of interest is being splintered. It's important to understand that what's being done is taking Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines and putting it in the riding of Rivière-du-Nord.

To begin with, Mirabel and Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines represent a community of interest in the Lower Laurentians economic region, which does not include the municipalities of La Rivière-du-Nord. Mirabel and the neighbouring RCMs in Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines conduct many projects together, including economic projects. Tourisme Basses-Laurentides, which promotes our area, serves both Mirabel and Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines.

ABL Immigration, a key organization whose mission is to promote and support the cultural and workforce integration of refugees and immigrants, serves Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines and Mirabel, but not the municipalities of La Rivière-du-Nord.

There is also the matter of media ownership. The local newspapers that report on all community activity, including L'ÉveilInfos MirabelNord InfoLa Voix have journalists covering events in the municipalities of Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines and Mirabel, but none of them cover the municipalities of La Rivière-du-Nord.

The Mille-Îles school service centre, which socializes our children, and provides elementary, secondary and professional education, serves Mirabel and Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines, but not the municipalities in the riding of Rivière-du-Nord. The Agricultural Training Centre in Sainte-Scholastique, in Mirabel, offers training courses for young farmers in the farming community of Sainte-Anne-des- Plaines.

There is also the issue of expropriations. As you know, there were major expropriations in Mirabel in the 1960s and 1970s. These expropriations our even today causing concern in terms of land use planning, urban development, airport safety and security, and the agricultural sector. These expropriations were in Mirabel and Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines. It is therefore essential to have an integrated riding where the MP is familiar with these issues, which is clearly the case for me.

There is a strong sense of attachment between Mirabel and Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines, and communities of interest ought not to be splintered on the basis of columns of numbers. Keeping Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines in Mirabel would change absolutely nothing, or almost nothing, in the electoral quotient. We're talking about a variation of approximately 2%.

There is also the matter of demographic growth. Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines has a municipal bylaw that restricts and sets a ceiling on demographic growth, because the intent is to keep it as a farming city. It's very obvious that there were no consultations and that a community of interest is being split. It's very clear that the community of interest at issue is very unhappy about the news.

Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines is tired of continually changing from one riding to another. It was in the riding of Terrebonne—Blainville for 10 years, and then became part of the riding of Mirabel. It has now been shifted to the Rivière-du-Nord riding, and given the demographic growth of the cities in that riding, it might be shifted to yet another one in 10 years. It needs stability. When you have a community of interest, it's important to be careful and to ensure that the ties that have been established can remain strong. That's exactly the opposite of what has been done by the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Garon.

Are we ready to continue? We don't have much time.

I appreciate your comments, but we need to continue with our meeting.

We are going to begin the six-minute rounds of questions. We'll begin with Mr. Gourde, who will be followed by Mr. Fergus, Mr. Therrien, and Ms. Blaney.

I'd like to remind you to speak slowly so that the interpreters can do their work. If there's a problem with that, I'll ask the interpreters to raise a hand, and we can remind people to speak a little more slowly.

Mr. Gourde, You have the floor for six minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Madam chair.

My question is for Mr. Garon.

Mr. Garon, you said that it wouldn't make much of a change in the electoral quotient in the riding, because the change would be approximately 2%. That, I would say, is 2,000 to 2,200 people. However the domino effect means that you would be taking that away from the other riding.

Would your proposal make it possible to achieve equality in terms of the redrawing of the electoral map, or would one of the other of ridings be affected negatively?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

If you look at the documents I provided, you'll see that I have the support of the MP for Rivière-du-Nord, who agrees with our arguments about the community of interests. The 2% that I mentioned falls in the middle of the acceptable range for change, which does not lead to a domino effect. There is no problem in returning the City of Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines to the riding of Mirabel .

We are on the second North Shore in the Montreal region. These are rather populous ridings. A small part of the riding was previously taken away, which made a lot of sense, but there would not be a domino effect if the commission decided to accede to my request.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

In the current proposal, would the electoral quotient of the municipality also change by 2%?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

The electoral quotient would remain the same.

The ridings in the region are fairly well balanced. When we talk about a variation of 2% for the electoral quotient, it's for the ridings of Mirabel and Rivière-du-Nord. That's why I can say that the return of Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines to the riding of Mirabel would have a negligible impact on the electoral quotient.

If the commission were to accede to my request, that would also be true for demographic growth. Over the past few years, there has been increased growth in Saint-Jérôme and Sainte-Julie, which are in the riding of Rivière-du-Nord. Urban development is not as heavy in this riding. It would probably make more sense for the next 10 years to keep Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines in the Mirabel riding, with urban development in the other two municipalities having reached a ceiling.

The City of Mirabel has undergone a great deal of development, but all that remains now is farmland. Development is capped in Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines. Timewise, it would make sense to return Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines to the riding of Mirabel to maintain this balance.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Mr. Bergeron and Ms. DeBellefeuille, your requests are altogether legitimate. Your presentations were very good. I don't think we would have any objection to changing the names of your ridings.

Do you have anything to add in support of this aspect?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Unlike my colleague, I did not appear before the commission. I was waiting to see what the "final" configuration of the riding would be.

When I saw that a large portion of the City of Carignan was to be added to the federal riding of Montarville, and noted the people of Carignan's negative reaction to it, I told myself that something had to be done to show that we were receptive. Something had to be done to ensure that the people of Carignan, like the residents of Saint-Hubert, Sainte-Julie and Saint-Basile-le-Grand, would feel more of an attraction to this electoral district. That's why I suggested the name "Mont-Saint-Bruno", which is a major attraction in the riding, and the name "L'Acadie", which crosses Carignan and Saint-Basile-le-Grand, for the name of the new riding.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Go ahead, Ms. DeBellefeuille.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

A name is important to the people we represent.

My colleague, Mr. Peter Schiefke, the MP for Vaudreuil—Soulanges, and I, the MP for Salaberry—Suroît, currently have a problem because all the municipalities in Soulanges are in my area. My fellow citizens and community groups are involved because they think that Soulanges is in my good friend Mr. Schiefke's riding. That's why I want to emphasize the importance of the name given to the riding, because it is something people can understand and idendify with.

In the last review of the electoral map, calling the neighbouring riding Vaudreuil—Soulanges was a mistake. This time, we hope to have a name that enables most citizens, organizations and business people to be able to identify with the name of the riding.

I hope that my proposal will be adopted.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

That's all I have to say, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Gourde.

Mr. Fergus, you have the floor.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank my three Bloc Québecois colleagues for being here today.

Mr. Bergeron, according to the commission's report on electoral redistribution, the City of Carignan was opposed to transferring part of its territory from the riding of Beloeil—Chambly to the riding of Montarville.

If things were to remain as they are, why do you believe that the name "Mont-Saint-Bruno—L'Acadie" or "L'Acadie—Mont-Saint-Bruno" would be more representative than "Montarville"?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Madam Chair, as I've had the opportunity to mention before, the name Montarville only applies to the City of Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville. The municipalities of Sainte-Julie and Saint-Basile-le-Grand are not a part of Montarville, and nor is Saint-Hubert. Not only that, but the City of Carignan would end up reluctantly in the riding of Montarville.

How then to establish a feeling of belonging for three of the municipalities in the riding, when there is no real community of interest? The only community of interest for these municipalities is Mont-Saint-Bruno, which everyone can see from anywhere in the riding.

Not only that, but the Acadie River runs not only through the City of Carignan, but also the City of Saint-Basile-le-Grand. The people of Carignan might say that their population has been split into two parts, but that they nevertheless feel a certain sense of community with the riding of Mont-Saint-Bruno—l'Acadie, or l'Acadie—Mont-Saint-Bruno, because of a geographical feature.

That's why something other than a community of interest is needed to rally the people in the riding of Montarville, which is rather like a mosaic. As my colleague pointed out, I too believe that a name can be very important in terms of people's sense of belonging, of feeling included in an entity like an electoral district, particularly at the federal level.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much.

Ms. DeBellefeuille, in your address, you said that the new proposed boundaries were not unanimously agreed to, but rather the outcome of consensus.

What do you mean by that?

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

When I prepared my brief for the commission, I consulted the three reeves in my riding and none of the reeves, nor the RCM council, wished to oppose the boundaries. Only one small municipality, Pointe-des-Cascades, was against it. Its population of approximately 1,800 is currently in the riding of Vaudreuil-Soulanges. Its opposition wasn't particularly polarized, nor given much media coverage, because it was unrelated to the decisions being made by the RCM reeves.

The fact is that RCM of Haut-Saint-Laurent Is split in two. The municipalities in the new riding of Châteauguay—Les Jardins-de-Napierville are not necessarily disappointed with this split. The only opposition comes from a single anglophone citizen who expressed his dissatisfaction with the new boundary because he felt that the anglophone community, which is concentrated in the RCM of Haut-Saint-Laurent, was now split in two. However, that was really the only objection, and it did not garner much support from others in our consultations.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

All right, thank you.

Madam Chair, if I still have enough time, I'd like to ask Mr. Garon a brief question.

Mr. Garon, is your work to keep the City of Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines in the riding of Mirabel politically advantageous to you?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Fergus, you know that I always tell the truth.

We did the calculations, and the outcome was a huge gap of 0%. The only difference it makes is to increase the size of my area and give me more work. As I am tireless, I have nevertheless come here to make the request.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Garon.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Fergus.

You have the floor, Mr. Therrien.