Evidence of meeting #61 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was telford.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Katie Telford  Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Welcome to meeting number 61 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today to continue its study on foreign election interference.

Before we begin—and this is a point I would like all members to hear very clearly—I'll note that all comments should be addressed through the chair. There should be one person speaking at a time. This is a meeting we've been looking forward to, and I know it's really important to all of us. Therefore, I will ask that, when we ask a question or make a comment, we provide time for an answer.

I will also let you know that the health of interpreters and the people who do their important work on Parliament Hill is paramount to me, because it's the way we advance a country with two official languages. That's something I think most of us wholeheartedly believe in. My signal to you once again is that I expect only one person to speak at a time and that we maintain a bit of eye contact when we want to pass the floor, however we do that. We're capable of doing this. The clerk and I will maintain a consolidated speaking list of members wishing to speak.

Today we have with us Ms. Katie Telford, chief of staff to the Prime Minister.

As a person who observes the Sikh faith and a member of the Sikh community, I want to wish everyone celebrating Vaisakhi a happy Vaisakhi. This is a really big deal in our community, so I want to express that to everyone here in person and watching. Thank you.

Ms. Telford, you will now have time for an opening statement, and then we will proceed to questions and comments from committee members. Welcome to PROC.

12:05 p.m.

Katie Telford Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thought I'd start by explaining my role and how I receive intelligence.

My job is to advise the Prime Minister and manage the Prime Minister's Office. A key part of my role is ensuring he receives advice and information from all parts of government so that he can make the best decisions possible. This includes briefings from the national security and intelligence adviser, the NSIA, and other intelligence officials. I am usually with the Prime Minister for these briefings.

Sometimes we receive these briefings in secure settings known as SCIFs. That stands for sensitive compartmented information facility. All of our phones and electronics get locked up by the elevator and don't enter the floor, let alone the room itself. Other times the NSIA will request that I read a document that is brought to me by a CRO, a client relations officer. The CRO hands me the document, supervises me while I read it and takes it back.

Sensitive intelligence is treated with the utmost care. There is a rigorous vetting process to obtain top secret clearance, which I have, and there are equally important obligations one must uphold to keep that clearance. That is because publicly disclosing what our intelligence agencies know or how they come to know it can irreparably harm Canada's national interests and put people's lives in danger. It can also threaten Canada's ability to obtain intelligence in the future, because Canada is a net importer of intelligence.

In my years in this job, I have seen a huge range of intelligence from all parts of the world. Some of it has been wrong—proven wrong—and some of it has been right. For some, we may never know, or only with time will we learn, if it's true.

Even intelligence that is proven wrong can be useful. It can shed light on the motivations or agenda of the source or on a narrative being pushed. Intelligence often comes as fragments of information that then need to be analyzed, assessed and discussed to understand what they really mean. That work has to be done by situating those fragments in a wider context of information. As the deputy minister of foreign affairs told you at this very committee, “intelligence rarely paints a full, concrete or actionable picture.”

Our government has been strengthening the measures that protect our institutions from foreign interference since 2015. I can confirm hand on heart that this issue has always been a priority and that we have taken concrete measures in this area. It is therefore important to take a moment to look back at the work that we have accomplished.

The Liberal Party made a commitment in its 2015 platform to form what has become the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians. The current Prime Minister, who was an MP when the Afghan detainee scandal broke out under the Harper government, saw the need for certain MPs to access classified information, which was not possible at the time. That's why our government passed a law to form such a committee. For six years now, MPs of all parties with top secret security clearance have been able to look at classified information and study it independently before producing a report that is made public. This committee is now reviewing foreign interference in the federal election process, amongst other files.

The threat of foreign interference has evolved since 2015. After seeing what happened with the American election in 2016 and the French election in 2017, our government, in order to better protect the 2019 federal election, set up the critical election incident public protocol. This protocol was part of the whole‑of‑government plan to protect Canada's democracy that we put into place in January 2019. The government officials in charge of the protocol who had access to classified information on matters of national security concluded that the 2019 and 2021 elections were carried out freely and fairly.

In 2019, we also set up the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency. This agency reviews how our security and intelligence agencies evaluated foreign interference before and after the two previous elections.

We also set up rapid response mechanism Canada and the security and intelligence threats to intelligence task force. Both help us to detect foreign threats to our democracy and disable them.

As the deputy minister of Foreign Affairs has told you, we have more and more tools to fight foreign interference.

David Johnston, the former Governor General of Canada, will present his recommendations on the issue by May 23. He will have unlimited access to classified documents to do his work and obviously, we have already confirmed that we will accept his recommendations.

Still, I know you have questions about what the Prime Minister's Office was told about specific intelligence and what we did as a result. I will do my best to answer your questions. At the same time, I must respect the law and the same boundaries the directors of CSIS and the NSIA did when they appeared before you. These constraints are exactly why NSICOP was created.

What I can say here is this: When we receive intelligence briefings of any kind, we don't leave any stones unturned. We usually start by asking a lot of questions: questions like how credible the intelligence is, who else has been briefed, who else needs to be briefed, what decisions are in front of decision-makers, what actions have already been taken, what actions can be taken and what authorities are needed to take them. Very often they are not within the Prime Minister's or cabinet's authorities. By that, I mean those are decisions for law enforcement or intelligence officials, and you've heard from them about the tools they have available, like CSIS's threat reductions.

All that being said, if there are actions to be taken to protect national security, we do not hesitate. Let's remember that foreign interference threatens all democracies. It comes from many authoritarian states, like China, Russia and Iran. It targets all aspects of society: our communities—particularly diaspora communities—our universities, research institutes, all levels of government and all political parties. It is not a new threat, but it is an evolving threat. It is a threat we will continue to do our utmost to guard against.

I want to end by addressing the debate around my appearance today and whether I am the right person to appear before you. I am a consumer of intelligence, not the one who briefs on intelligence. The NSIA is the person who directly reports to the Prime Minister on these matters. On top of that, for all the reasons outlined today, these matters are extremely sensitive, and the law limits what I can talk about in this public setting.

Ultimately, I have accepted this invitation because I want Parliament to work.

I've devoted most of my professional life to getting people involved in politics: to run for office, to advance the causes they believe in and to make a difference in their communities and in their country. That's why I'm here, and I believe it's why we're all here. Protecting our democracy is one of the most important things we can do and one of the most important parts of my job. Campaigns, politics and democracy are all about people expressing their rights and electing who represents them. I will always fight for these rights and defend against any attempts to undermine them.

With that, I will do my very best to answer your questions.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you, Ms. Telford, for those opening comments and for being here with us today.

We will now commence with six-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Brock, followed by Ms. Sahota.

Then we will go to Ms. Gaudreau, who will be followed by Ms. Blaney.

As always, one person will speak at a time.

I will give a quick reminder that this is the procedure and House affairs committee. It is not a courtroom, so if we can provide some time to ask a question, make a comment and give an answer, that will allow our interpreters to work best.

Interpreters, can you see me?

Can you hear me? If there's a problem, please raise your hand and I will suspend the meeting to allow you to do your work, which is very important for us all.

Mr. Brock, the floor is yours.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, Ms. Telford. Thank you for your attendance today.

Ms. Telford, did the Prime Minister receive a series of briefings from Canada's national spy agency beginning in January 2022 on Beijing's election interference, specifically in the 2019 election?

12:10 p.m.

Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister

Katie Telford

I believe you received from the national security and intelligence adviser and from the Privy Council Office a listing of briefings that the Prime Minister has received on this subject.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Yes. You're referring to the document that was undertaken by the national security officer, Jody Thomas, on March 1 of this year, which we received this morning at 10 o'clock. I've looked at this, and there is no indication about any briefings in January 2022. However, it's noteworthy that the commentary on the beginning of page 1 indicates that the list is not exhaustive, as the records are not complete in all cases, and that this only represents formal briefings as opposed to informal briefings.

I'll ask the question again. Did the Prime Minister receive a series of briefings beginning in January 2022 on Beijing's election interference in the 2019 election—yes or no?

12:10 p.m.

Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister

Katie Telford

I think the answer may have been given in the question, which is that the preamble in the memo talks about how there are all kinds of conversations that go on about some of these topics that can't all be captured in terms of formal briefings. You have the list of formal briefings that were provided in the memo.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

So I can take that as a yes. He would have received some informal briefings in and around the time frame of January 2022, as reported by Global News on November 7, 2022.

12:15 p.m.

Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister

Katie Telford

I can't speak specifically to what was discussed in briefings over the course of those months and whether it was related to what was in the reporting.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Again, Ms. Telford, I'm not asking for specifics. I'm asking you to confirm that it is more than likely, and in fact did happen, that he received briefings along those lines in January 2022, notwithstanding that it's not repeated in the particular document we got today.

12:15 p.m.

Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister

Katie Telford

“Did” and “more than likely”, in my experience, are different things. I think it is quite possible that there were discussions throughout that time period around foreign interference. As I think the Prime Minister said yesterday, we have talked about these subjects a lot over many years because there has been a lot of activity and a lot of work done by the government on this front.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

The Prime Minister was briefed on China's Toronto consulate directing a large clandestine transfer of funds to at least 11 federal election candidates and numerous Beijing operatives who worked as their campaign staffers. That was the subject matter of those series of briefings in January 2022. Are you confirming that?

12:15 p.m.

Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister

Katie Telford

No. Unfortunately, I can't provide information about what I have or have not been briefed on in an intelligence setting or in a public setting about intelligence. However, what I can remind the members of is what the NSIA said when she was here, actually, on March 1 at this very committee. She said, “the connection that was being made between 11 candidates and [the funds you're describing] was inaccurate.”

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

If this were completely inaccurate, if this story of Global News on November 7 were completely inaccurate, you would have said so, your Prime Minister would have said so and your members of cabinet would have said so.

I am asking you specifically, apart from the issue of clandestine transfers to 11 candidates, about the other subject matter of those briefings. Is that false? Is that inaccurate in any way?

12:15 p.m.

Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister

Katie Telford

I'm sorry. You might have to clarify the question.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

You've highlighted that there was an issue with respect to the Prime Minister's never receiving any information in respect to the transfer of monies to specific candidates. I'm talking about the broader description of evidence and intelligence that was shared with the Prime Minister in a series of briefings in January 2022, as reported by Global News.

Is that inaccurate?

12:15 p.m.

Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister

Katie Telford

I can't speak to the reporting of Global News, but I can speak to my experience, which is that there have been a lot of conversations over many years. It's why all the different mechanisms that I outlined were put in place leading into the 2019 election and the 2021 election. There were further steps taken between those two elections.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you.

Did the Privy Council Office prepare a document entitled “Special Report”, date-stamped January 2022—yes or no?

12:15 p.m.

Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister

Katie Telford

I can't speak to that.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Why not?

12:15 p.m.

Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister

Katie Telford

I'm not sure what document you're referencing. If you can give me some information, I probably still won't be able to confirm whether or not it was something I saw, but I'd be happy to try.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

It was reported by Global News on March 8. It was reviewed by Sam Cooper, the reporter. It was date-stamped and finalized, suggesting it was intended to be read by the Prime Minister and senior aides, including you. It was derived from 100 CSIS reports from investigations beginning in January 2019, and produced by the intelligence assessment secretariat, a division of the PCO. It was part of a series of briefings beginning in January 2022, confirming the large, clandestine transfer of funds earmarked for the federal election from the consulate in Toronto, which transferred those funds to an elected provincial government official via a staff member of a 2019 federal candidate.

You are responsible, ultimately, for the PCO. The PCO is the arm of the Prime Minister. It's his own department. They report to you. You control the PMO. Are you suggesting that this special report, as prepared by the intelligence assessment secretariat, did not occur?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Ms. Telford, before I continue....

As members of Parliament we've all served in the House. When you suggest “you”, Mr. Brock, you are referring to the chair in this role.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Yes, I am.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

You are referring to me.