Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 27th, 2023

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

We all know the answer. You can just say it, Minister.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Madam Chair, I've explained the many concrete actions that we have taken against threats posed by foreign interference. We'll continue to be vigilant on that front.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Minister, under your so-called robust measures, have any charges been laid against anybody for foreign interference?

We know that our Five Eyes allies, who actually used to involve us in security arrangements and are now passing us by, have done so, and that charges have been laid in places like the United States, Australia and other places. Have your robust measures resulted in any charges being laid, yes or no?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Madam Chair, I'm confident that the discretion that is exercised independently operationally by law enforcement will safeguard all of our democratic institutions and our communities.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Well, it seems to me, Minister, that your robust measures on election integrity seem to be about as robust as your measures on bail reform, so I'll get off that tack and we'll move over to your comment on “eyes wide open”.

The Globe and Mail reported on February 17, based on their review of a CSIS document from December 20, 2021, that “political campaigns quietly, and illegally, return...'the difference between the original donation and the government's refund'...back to the donors.

Under the direction of Beijing, donations were being made to political campaigns, and then those campaigns were illegally returning the money back to those donors to make them whole after they got their tax receipt. That's collusion.

Would you like to change your “eyes wide open” to maybe “eyes wide shut” under your robust measures?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Madam Chair, as I've indicated, the government has taken unprecedented steps in the creation of new authorities, including protocols that are there to protect the integrity of our elections. We've had two reports that have certified that the elections in 2019 and 2021 were both free and fair.

We will continue to build on that record, receiving recommendations from Mr. Johnston, working with parliamentarians at NSICOP and using NSIRA as a way to shine a light on the way that we are doing this work together.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, do you remember that two Parliaments ago, there was a bill—Bill C-406—that would have banned foreign money coming into our electoral process?

Do you remember how you voted on that bill, Mr. Minister?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Madam Chair, what I can tell you is that I recall my votes on Bill C-76 and Bill C-59. I voted in favour of them, in conjunction with the government—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Mr. Minister, it's about you and your colleagues—

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The Conservatives voted against those.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

As a matter of fact, that was my private member's bill, banning foreign money coming into our electoral process, and you, Minister, voted against it. Your colleague Mr. Gerretsen did. In fact, the entire NDP caucus did as well.

It's interesting how we seem to want to say one-sided things and create a narrative that simply isn't true—even somebody who is supposedly a competent minister of the Crown.

I'll move on to a different question—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

On a point of order, I know that Mr. Calkins thinks he's extremely witty with his comments, but challenging somebody's integrity and their ability in this forum is not only in contravention of the Standing Orders in the House, which would apply to this place; it is also extremely unprofessional and extremely rude to any witness, whoever that witness may be.

Madam Chair, through you, perhaps Mr. Calkins—who, by the way, has been in the public, calling members of Parliament agents of Beijing—if he's not going to apologize for that comment, would at least like to apologize for questioning the integrity of the minister sitting at this table right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I appreciate that.

I will come to you, Mr. Calkins.

I have been really persistent in how I would like our committee to function. At the end of the day, when it comes to our democratic institutions, as much as people might take this lightheartedly or think it's a...I don't even know what. This is a really serious topic. I know my constituents are very concerned with it.

At the end of the day, we all say one thing and then our comments and actions demonstrate another. I honestly don't think there's any place for that, Mr. Calkins.

I'll give you the floor.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will respectfully withdraw the comment—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I would hope so.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

—in the way it was taken. Most of our legislation refers to how a “competent minister shall” in that legislation, but I will withdraw it if offence was taken. I will certainly do that.

Mr. Minister, we know that security-cleared Liberal staff were briefed on September 28, 2019, that the 2019 candidate for Don Valley North was part of a foreign interference network. Jeremy Broadhurst, who was here earlier, determined the contents of the briefing to be so serious that he personally alerted the Prime Minister the next day.

The Prime Minister knew about Beijing's interference benefiting Liberal politicians as early as the time of the 2019 election. We also know that the February 21, 2020, PCO document alerted the Prime Minister that political staff and politicians took broad guidance from Beijing's Toronto consulate. We know that the Prime Minister and the ministers received CSIS briefings that some political candidates were witting affiliates of Beijing's interference schemes.

My question to you, Minister, is whether you have investigated which members of your caucus or which Liberal candidates in the past two elections may have knowingly co-operated with Beijing's election interference schemes.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Madam Chair, let me say a couple of things.

First, in response to the specific question, we take foreign interference very seriously. I believe all parliamentarians do. In the last hour, I think we've explained what our record is and what we are going to continue doing.

Lastly, with regard to the comment that was made, I personally wasn't offended by it. I think it's the reality of being in politics today that we need thick skins, but I think Canadians would be offended by that remark.

Perhaps it explains why we need to do this work together to protect our institutions. That kind of personal attack is becoming far too often a hallmark of the way we have these debates.

I'm glad that Mr. Calkins apologized, but I came here to offer what I thought was important testimony on a very serious issue. I've tried to be responsive, and I thank you for the opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, you have five minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Minister, thanks for being here today.

Do you direct the daily operations of the RCMP?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I do not.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Do you direct the daily operations of CSIS?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

No.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Essentially, CSIS and the RCMP have an independent mandate to investigate if they have actionable intelligence. Is that not correct?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Operational independence is extremely important, I would argue, especially for conventional law enforcement. This is one of the ways in which we divide functions. You do not want elected officials carrying out investigations, which is why we have an independent police branch.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I'll note that's very consistent with what the director of CSIS—David Vigneault, who is here today—said at our committee, “We...have the authority to investigate...directly.” We also had the deputy commissioner of the RCMP say the same thing on record at this committee. I'll note the deputy commissioner of the RCMP also said, “We are not investigating any elements from the 2019 and 2021 elections. We did not receive any actionable intelligence that would warrant our initiating a criminal investigation.”

I find it very challenging when we have the opposition members continuing to claim things as though the minister can be held accountable for things that are not within his.... Essentially, the investigations are things that could be happening under those independent agencies, so it's misleading at best.

One other question I have for you, Minister, is this. The Jim Judd report makes a recommendation about how the critical election incident public protocol was operating over a time within the caretaker period. At election time, it oversees those elections. Outside of the election period, it is not in effect. Essentially, at those times, I'm sure ministerial accountability is the norm.

I want to ask you a more poignant question about that. In terms of our government's robust all-of-government approach, it seems to me that outside the election period there's a lot of need for coordination, because there are quite a few ministries that would be involved in combatting foreign election interference. Is that why a national coordinator position is so significant? Could you speak to that?