Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm going to call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 68 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today to continue its study on the report of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Ontario 2022.

We have with us today Marie-France Lalonde, MP, Orléans; Anna Roberts, MP, King—Vaughan; Ruby Sahota, MP, Brampton North; and Doug Shipley, MP, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte.

You will each have up to four minutes for an opening statement, after which we will proceed to questions from committee members.

Mr. Shipley asked whether he could go first, because he said he'll be less than a minute.

Mr. Shipley, the floor is yours.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, committee.

I will be short, because it's a very small change. I'm very happy with the small differences in the boundaries themselves. I'm just here today to talk about the name.

Currently, my riding is called “Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte”. It's being proposed to become “Barrie North—Springwater—Oro-Medonte”. I'm looking for the word “North” to be removed. When we brought this forward, a couple of residents pointed out to me that it's a little confusing. Some people think it means “North Springwater” because it falls into.... I understand, due to translation, it can't be called “North Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte”, but I feel the “North” isn't really needed. There's also a cost to having to change and add the word “North” to everything, from letterhead to business cards—even the plaques in the hallway of our offices would have to be changed. As I said, some residents mentioned it's a bit confusing as to which part is north—whether it is “Barrie North” or “North Springwater”.

It's a very simple thing. I appreciate the committee for listening today. I'm just looking for the word “North” to be removed and to keep it as “Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte”, or as we call it locally, “BSOM”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Excellent. Thank you for that great presentation.

Go ahead, Madam Lalonde.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Dear members of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, as the proud elected representative of the community of Orleans since 2014, and as a resident of this great community since 1999, I am here to defend it. I'm opposed to the proposed changes for the riding of Orleans.

Because both my report tabled on 25 September 2022 and my presentation during the commission's public hearing on 20 October 2022 were rejected in their entirety, and because cutting up the riding of Orleans will lead to nothing less than dismantling its identity and that of the citizens in the community, I am here today to make a proposal.

You have some slides in front of you. I would like to reflect on slide number two.

Today I'm asking the members of PROC to recognize the importance of keeping two key neighbourhoods within the boundaries of the riding of Orléans as the best solution and compromise by recommending this proposition.

Orléans takes great pride in being a suburb community. Orléans is growing because people and businesses are choosing our community for its bilingualism, multiculturalism, relationship with nature, francophone heritage and closeness to the greenbelt. As part of this community, we see ourselves as “one”. Orléans residents have a strong sense of belonging. The Blackburn Hamlet community in the southern part of Orléans is a mature community with no options to grow due to non-existent undeveloped land. I need to remind the members of the committee, as reference, that Orléans lost the Beacon Hill sector to Vanier in 2015. Ten years later, here today we are proposing yet another loss of our community of Orléans, which is Blackburn Hamlet.

Let's talk about about Cardinal Creek, an important development at the eastern boundary of Orléans. It's another neighbourhood that lives and breathes within the Orléans community. They too are looking east for groceries, schools, activities, sports, health care services, community services and political representation. Where does it end? How much more will Orléans be penalized because of its success in attracting people and businesses?

The residents will have to drive further west to Blackburn Hamlet, which is 12 kilometres versus eight kilometres, and further east for Cardinal Creek, which is 20 kilometres versus four kilometres, to see their federal representative. How can they expect their concerns or issues to be understood when they're related to the community they actually live in, which is Orléans?

I want to also highlight the number of landmarks. The sole argument of the commission is based on the population number in terms of the deviation from the quota. The impact of the proposed redistribution is the loss of our landmarks. It's the loss of the heart of the Orléans main street. It's the loss of its identity, institutions and lands that define Orléans and give pride to Orléans. It's truly what our community has worked so hard to build and to attract businesses and people to make Orléans their home. We can't take away what has been the reason for building our community of Orléans.

Let me share with you some of the landmarks. We have Just Food Farm, Blackburn Hamlet arena and community centre, Louis-Riel school, Lafarge quarry, a golf course, a soccer facility, trails and parks, Orléans Fruit Farm, which is a generational family business, and the RCMP. There's no logistical explanation for the decision of the commission other than the quota. Orléans's downfall has actually been its own success. I would ask the members here why.

Look at the orange boundary lines, please. It's the last map on the slide. If we cannot keep our people, then we at least have to keep our lands and landmarks as the ultimate solution.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Everyone knows I'm persistent with the beep-beep-beep. I asked Madam Lalonde to slow down with regard to translation, and hence that was a good pace.

Thank you for that.

Go ahead, Mrs. Roberts.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the committee members for the opportunity to speak on behalf of the constituents of King—Vaughan regarding the proposed changes to the federal electoral boundaries.

The proposed boundaries adjustment for the Township of King within the riding of King—Vaughan has divided King Township, thereby isolating a very important community. Currently, ward 6 in the Township of King has not been included in the King—Vaughan redistribution proposal.

Ward 6 follows the Holland Marsh north of Highway 9 until it intersects with Bathurst Street. The Holland Marsh and the historical significance of King Township includes the communities of Ansnorveldt and Glenville.

As stated by the redistribution commission, one part of the criteria used to determine the new federal electoral boundaries is to respect communities of interest or identity, for example, communities based around language or a shared culture and history. Currently, ward 6 falls in the riding of York—Simcoe. It has been proposed that it fall in the riding of New Tecumseth—Bradford.

The Holland Marsh and the communities Ansnorveldt and Glenville within ward 6 have significant historical ties to King Township and, by not including them in the riding of King—Vaughan, will be isolated from the rest of our community. The Holland Marsh has had a significant historical tie to the Township of King since 1925. The community of Ansnorveldt is credited with being home to the first year-round settler in the area since 1934. In the early 1800s, the community of Glenville established the first sector of the industry in the area, and today many residents of King continue to buy their produce from the local farmers' market.

Both the mayor and councillor of the Township of King are supportive of this proposal, which I have included in my written submission. Mrs. Avia Eek, the current councillor of ward 6, and her husband and family, are third-generation Holland Marsh farmers. They have focused on agriculture, environment and economic development for the community. Mrs. Eek represents her community with pride and commitment, ensuring that the continued growth of our agriculture is not jeopardized. This is just one example of the community support for today's proposal.

King Township is known as the community of small communities. It prides itself on the fact that, although each village has its own unique character and charm, collectively each population has a strong sense of community under the umbrella of King—Vaughan. Therefore, I ask PROC to reconsider the redistribution, respect the history of King and keep this community of small communities as one by including ward 6 in the federal riding of King—Vaughan.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mrs. Sahota.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of PROC, for giving me this opportunity to speak on behalf of the constituents of Brampton North. I'm presenting here today to speak on how the current proposal for redistribution does more harm than good to the communities of Brampton North.

An important and long-standing community within my riding is the community of Springdale. The current redistribution proposal set out by the commission divides Springdale into three separate ridings: Brampton North Caledon, Brampton—Chinguacousy and Brampton East. This is a complete deviation from the commission's first version of the map.

My request is that the Springdale community remain as intact as possible in one singular federal electoral riding. As a community of interest, it is important for the committee to understand the history behind Springdale and its evolution to the present day. In order to do so, I will quote my regional and city councillors, who wrote a very meaningful letter. It wasn't included in my package, but I will have it circulated through the clerk. It reads:

Springdale Community, situated in the North-east portion of Brampton, is truly a crown jewel in our city. Established in the late 90s and early 2000s, this vibrant community is home to a diverse population of immigrants hailing from all corners of the world. It proudly embraces its multiculturalism, evident in the numerous places of worship that bring people together for various celebrations, such as the grand Gujarati Garbas, Muslim Eid prayers, and Sikh Nagar Kirtans (parades). This community exemplifies the essence of Canadian society, a tightly woven fabric where diversity is cherished.

At the heart of Springdale lies our city's only hospital, a crucial lifeline for the residents. Additionally, the Soccer Centre, one of Brampton's largest recreation facilities, has nurtured Canadian international players who have proudly represented our country at the World Cup. The development of this community is anchored by the Springdale Library and the Komagata Maru Park. Furthermore, Springdale benefits from excellent connectivity, supported by the Transit Terminal located at the Trinity Commons Mall.

This new version would divide all of these landmarks. It continues:

The residents of Springdale are deeply interconnected and rely on the comprehensive range of services available in this area. In fact, Springdale serves as an exemplary model of community-building that should be emulated across Canada. Regrettably, the proposed riding boundaries would split our community into three separate ridings, leaving its residents unfairly underserviced. It is disheartening to imagine a large, marginalized population struggling to navigate their way through three distinct ridings and engage with their elected representatives effectively.

I have included in my package many letters of support that have been written by leaders of these community centres, places of worship and the recreation centre, not to mention that other members of Parliament have signed my proposal as well.

I want to make it clear that dividing the voice of the Springdale community means dividing the representation it deserves and its long-standing history of being intact as one community.

I would ask the members of this committee to take into consideration keeping this community of interest together. It is something that the commission has made clear is an important factor when coming to these decisions, and I'm confident that the commission, if they take a closer look, can come up with a proposal that will be within the deviation limits that would keep this community intact.

Thank you so much for hearing me out today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I raise a point of order, Madam Chair.

I just wanted to mention that the sound quality of interpretation services is fluctuating a lot.

Depending on the interpreter who is speaking, the sound volume varies. We want to avoid an acoustic shock, and do so in both official languages.

I just want to make sure that speakers place their microphones correctly and their cadence is appropriate, of course.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I am very grateful for your intervention.

We will do everything in our power to make sure the volume is appropriate.

The clerk is on it.

We're going to enter into six-minute rounds starting with Ms. Gladu followed by Mrs. Romanado.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today.

By way of background—the rest of the committee knows this—just so you know, as the lead for the Conservatives on the redistribution effort, I did sit through nearly every one of the almost 40 public hearings listening to all the testimony and reading through what people have written.

As an opener, I would say that in general I think the commission did a good job of listening to the many people who attended the public hearings and of redrawing the maps, but let's start with Mr. Shipley.

With respect to name changes, we did see a flexibility on the part of the commission to allow name changes. Penetanguishene was greatly objected to, for example, and they were allowed to go back to Simcoe North and Simcoe South. South Huron Shores was another one that was objected to and was changed.

I don't imagine that there will be huge differences, but as I understand it, you and the MP in the riding below you, which was Barrie—Innisfil, wanted to correct the confusion people were having about which office they should go to. That's why originally you wanted “South Barrie” and “North Barrie”, with all the rest of the places on the names, but because of the French syntax they had to reverse them, and now it's confusing. Is that correct?

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

That is also what I have been told,

Originally, when MP Brassard and I put it forward, because he is for Barrie—Innisfil, we were thinking of putting “North Barrie—Innisfil” and “North Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte”, but we were told that's not doable. When we did look through the rest of the names, it appears that it is not: “North” is always second.

It just gets a little confusing. That's what I've heard from some of my residents.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I know that to the south your colleague is going to not object to the Barrie South—Innisfil, because Innisfil is all there, so he thinks the clarification still works. Do you see any conflict with that?

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

No, I don't at this point in time. For MP Brassard, that name is a lot shorter, too. Mine is already one of the longer names with Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte. Adding in another one is just going to make it even longer. I don't think there will be any confusion with that. Up until now even, I had part of Oro-Medonte, and we didn't differentiate between north and south, so I think adding it makes it a little cumbersome.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay. Very good.

Now, Ms. Roberts, one of the other things we saw was that there were complaints in the public hearings about trying to keep municipalities together.

For example, in Chatham—Kent, two of their wards were put into Sarnia—Lambton. Bkejwanong and the other ones were all in Chatham—Kent. In the redraw, they made those whole. It was the same thing for Kingsville and Essex. I think Leeds was another one where they could see that there were objections. I think that when it comes to trying to keep King whole, that argument would be consistent with what the commission has done.

Are there a lot of people impacted by this? How many are there?

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you for your question.

There are about 1,165 residents in the small community. King Township consists of 28,000 residents. It's a very small, growing municipality, but it's a very close-knit municipality. A lot of King Township is aware of ward 6 because Holland Marsh, as many people know, is the richest soil in the world, where we grow all our vegetables. The councillor is currently involved with agriculture to ensure we continue to grow our vegetables for the community, so it would impact a lot of the community if that weren't included. Right now, she feels that every time she goes to a meeting she's not part of it. Ward 6 is a small part of a smaller community.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Right, and they pay taxes to King.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

That's right.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

That's very good. All right. I don't have any issue with that.

Ms. Sahota, in the Brampton area, I could see at the beginning in looking at the population growth that it has the highest growth, so I knew that they were going to put the new riding in that area. Is Springdale a municipality or a neighbourhood?

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Springdale is a neighbourhood. The redistribution, however, does go over a municipal border into Dufferin—Caledon, but that wasn't my purpose in coming here today. As you have just said, the area is growing immensely, and I imagine that in the next 10 years Brampton itself will have a complete six ridings. Springdale is a neighbourhood, and it has always been situated within a federal riding.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

If you put Springdale back into your riding, what does that do to your quota?

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

I'm not sure which riding I would run from in the next election. My riding has been completely split in many different ways.

It allows me the opportunity to make that decision afterwards. My whole purpose in coming here today is in the interest of the residents of Springdale: to keep them intact as much as possible within either riding.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

I'll move on to Mrs. Lalonde. I know that Orléans already had a 20% population growth, which was one of the highest in the province. To give you perspective, Toronto is growing at 6% and the rest of rural Ontario is growing at 13%, so definitely people are moving into Orléans.

When I look at the growth that you have and the growth that's going to continue—you're already on the plus-9% of the quota—I think the commission may have a concern there that, if they add more communities back into you, it's just going to result in changing the future iteration.

How different is Blackburn Hamlet from the other communities that are there in the community that they got put into?

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

When you think about Blackburn Hamlet, for instance, they don't even at this point refer to themselves as Ottawa or Orléans. They consider themselves as one entity: Blackburn, the Hamlet. I have to say to the members of this committee that, if you look in your packages, this was the community that had positioned themselves most strongly in opposition to what the current commission is proposing.

We had city councillors and letters of local associations coming to us and sharing with us and at the commission report and audit the fact that they would like to keep their boundaries within the Orléans community.