Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

A little over 70,000 people live in just the community of Springdale. I believe it's 70,646. It would make up about 56% of my current riding.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I see that, when the commission did its work, it balanced out all of the Brampton ridings to be between 110,000 and 119,000. It's very difficult to put 70,000 into any one of those without blowing up the map, I would say.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

In the first version, they did so. They kept Springdale intact. However, in the second version, they split it up.

I also attended most of the hearings. There was no demand to have any of those boundaries really messed with, not by any of my neighbouring representatives nor at any of the meetings I attended regarding Brampton East and Brampton West. Nobody at those hearings came forward arguing the boundaries that ended up affecting Springdale.

I don't know.... We could not have predicted this outcome of splitting the community in three parts.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Very good.

Mrs. Lalonde, I asked you the question about Blackburn Hamlet, and you said it's kind of a community unto its own.

I have the same question on the other side with Cardinal Creek Village. How integrated is it, or is it similarly a place of its own?

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Cardinal Creek Village is a new development. It's definitely part of the growth of our community of Orléans. It is within four kilometres of what we call the heart of St. Joseph Boulevard or the heart of Orléans, if I could say. Since the beginning of the construction of that new development, they have always associated themselves with being Orléans.

The current proposal would make them part of the Glengarry—Prescott. I think there's a new name; it's no longer Russell. My colleague and I had numerous conversations on this. I know they would be well served if this is the final decision. However, that community has identified itself as part of the City of Ottawa, as Orléans residents since they moved in a few years ago.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

The only thing I can see there, with having gone from 139,000 in your riding with the redraw down to 126,000, is that it's equally hard to put more things back in there.

The last question is for Mrs. Roberts. Were there any objections from any of the surrounding ridings on making King whole?

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you for the question.

It's interesting that you ask that question because there weren't any objections. What's interesting is that we now service ward 6. Because the residents of ward 6 feel that they're part of King, when they look up the MP for King—Vaughan, they call our office and we service them. All we're saying is to keep them part of King because they are part of King Township.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

The only final comment I would offer is a comfort to Mrs. Lalonde that, if people have to drive 20 minutes to an office, compared to some of the places in Ontario where they have to drive hours to get to an office, she's already in a better position.

Those are all my questions. Thanks so much, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Excellent. Thank you, Ms. Gladu.

Are there any other questions here?

Yes, Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I have two quick questions.

Ms. Sahota, regarding Springdale, I have some experience as my parent actually lived in Springdale when the community was starting up a couple of decades ago. I really do understand how it is a community of particular interest and of concern.

You could have argued for it to go to one place or another. I really do appreciate the fact that you are letting the commissioners determine where it should go. Brampton as a whole is a growing place, so you're not in opposition to adding an extra riding, I take it.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

No, I'm not in opposition to that. If anything, I think that the population of Brampton could justify even six ridings at this point in time. However, I understand that they're looking at the numbers very conservatively and not for very recent growth or future growth.

Absolutely, I'm not in opposition to that.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mrs. Lalonde, when it comes to Orleans, a point you didn't raise was the importance of maintaining its francophone core. From its very beginnings as a municipality, Orleans was always considered a francophone community. For ages, all representatives for the riding of Orleans have been Franco-Ontarians.

Could you tell us about the importance of maintaining this community of interest?

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you, dear colleague.

Orleans has the highest concentration of Francophones in the City of Ottawa. The proposed boundary change could remove francophone communities from the electoral riding of Orleans. They are strongly attached to their identity and their francophone schools, which we are still building. In Orleans, we also have the highest concentration of young students in francophone schools. The francophone aspect must therefore be taken into account.

I just want to come back to one point. At the very least, in your final proposal, I ask you to leave St‑Joseph Boulevard in our riding. It's at the heart of life and history in Orleans, as well as our Francophonie. I'm thinking of the Société franco-ontarienne du patrimoine et de l'histoire d'Orléans, or SFOPHO. It's a heritage society that set up historical plaques all over the community of Orleans. They highlight points of historical interest, like the Orleans Fruit Farm I mentioned earlier.

I therefore ask the committee and the commission to take this essential aspect into account in the final proposal. By arbitrarily dividing St‑Joseph Boulevard, a boulevard that is quite central to our feeling of belonging as Francophones and as proud Franco-Ontarians, you're taking away a rural component, which mostly includes land.

I beg you, dear colleagues, to at least take into account the importance of St‑Joseph Boulevard, which is part of our cultural and linguistic identity and could remain in the riding of Orleans.

If it is absolutely imperative to cut down the riding of Orleans to balance the ridings' demographic weight, I ask the committee not to divide St‑Joseph Boulevard. That way, the riding could keep the lands, institutions and landmarks that represent it, as well as maintain its link with the Greenbelt. They are an undeniable part of our proud heritage.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'll give my colleagues a chance to speak.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mrs. Lalonde, I just want to focus on something once more. As you said, those lands are part of the Greenbelt. If the committee accepts your recommendation and asks the commission to review the boundary, it won't be possible to increase population density in Orleans, because no property development will happen in that zone.

Is that right?

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

That's exactly right.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Very well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Madam Chair, I just want to say that our conversations were extremely constructive today. As we come to the end of our analyses, know that I was very moved when it was highlighted that, among a dozen criteria, the electoral quotient seems to be quite high in the order of priority.

Deciding to butcher a riding to the detriment of heritage, communities of interest and Franco-Ontarians is a serious decision.

To conclude, I'd like to give the last word to our colleagues, if they want to present crucial arguments in the hopes of changing the boundaries. Mrs. Lalonde mentioned several things she wants to keep in the riding she represents. I'd also like to hear from Mr. Shipley, Ms. Roberts and Ms. Sahota.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Did you want comments from all four of us?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Indeed, I know that's what you would like, Mrs. Lalonde, but I think your comments are enough for now. I'd like to give Ms. Sahota and Ms. Roberts the final word.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

I've handed out versions of the map, so you can take a quick look at how different the map became. My main disappointment is that main arteries have not been considered. I think they should go around specific communities of interest, rather than go through them.

For instance, the head of my local gurdwara said, “Myself, along with my fellow board members, fear that our voice may be weakened if the electoral boundary changes that are proposed go through. Not only this gurdwara but the ecosystem of Springdale will be affected with this change.”

About 40% of my riding's population is Sikh. The second-most spoken language is Punjabi. Perhaps that's not so much of an issue today, but it could be. Having a representative who's able to staff their offices appropriately and provide the appropriate services is necessary in a community like that. It makes it much easier if you keep a community of interest like that intact within a federal riding so that representation can be properly given.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you for the question.

What we have to understand about King Township is that ward 6 is part of King Township. It's a very small community. It was started with Dutch farmers. The community has always been separated.

As it is currently, they have nothing in common with the current region of York—Simcoe, and they will have nothing in common with New Tecumseth—Bradford. However, their association is with King Township. The residents always feel like they're left out.

All we're asking is to keep them intact in this very small community of communities. Thank you.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, for giving us a bit more time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.

Ms. Blaney, do you have any last questions?