Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 11th, 2023

[Jenni Byrne]

I can't see at this point how there can't be a public inquiry. From what has come out in terms of the hiding...the misinformation and the targeting of Mr. Chong, I do not see a scenario where David Johnston cannot call a public inquiry, which is, from an issues management point of view, why this government continues to get caught kicking and screaming. It's an indictment of how their issues management process has been on this issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Sahota.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My first question to the witness is regarding statements made by her on a podcast called Curse of Politics.

There was a discussion regarding the 2021 election, and in that, you noted that one can agree with the strategy, but you can't argue that the strategy worked. The Conservative Party strategy did not work; this is what you were implying.

If you look at B.C., we lost four seats in the Lower Mainland. We lost support in four of five of the Surrey ridings. You can't tell me that our strategy worked in the Lower Mainland. It just didn't.

There were many issues in that campaign that affected voters in that region. I'm sure you did a post-analysis of many of those reasons.

I talked to many candidates and MPs who were elected from that region, and legalizing assault weapons was a major issue that came up at doors. They heard from Chinese Canadians that the legalization of assault rifles was an important election issue to them.

Now, there's never one election issue. I think this is something you mentioned on that podcast as well. It is sometimes the accumulation of many issues. Do you still stand by those words, that the Conservative Party strategy at that time did not work for those ridings?

[Jenni Byrne]

Yes, I think I was clear. As I said, I had nothing to do with the central campaign in 2021. I was very clear that I disagreed with the campaign's direction on a few things, most notably campaigning to support a carbon tax. That was an extremely big one.

I don't think it's mutually exclusive. I think there were several factors for why, in the last election, the Conservatives did poorly, especially in suburban-urban ridings in the GVRD and the GTA. That does not mean foreign interference didn't happen.

I don't think the election result would have made a difference—I really don't—but I don't think that takes away from the fact that we should be very concerned about foreign interference in our elections.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Absolutely, and I actually agree with you that foreign interference perhaps did not have the result of overturning those riding elections. However, it is important to take steps. That's why we're here today. That's why we are, even with unanimous consent, looking at the privilege motion regarding Mr. Chong. That is why a foreign agent registry is going to be implemented in the coming months. There have been consultations taking place. That is why we set up NSICOP and all of the different procedures that have been set in place.

I think all of us around this table and many witnesses agree that actions have been taken by this government and that there's more we can do to continue to strengthen our democracy so that foreign interference doesn't take place.

What I find it very strange and odd is that we've heard from most experts here who had any advisory roles when it comes to our partner agencies, such as CSIS, that foreign interference has been a big problem for a while. It's a growing problem, as you said, and that's why we're taking these actions. However, for you to say today that there was absolutely no knowledge of this, other than Leadnow and other than this last election, seems, in Mr. Cooper's words, suspicious. It really does seem suspicious. Or you built up some type of structure at the time that you were the adviser to Mr. Harper and you were happy to be ignorant about what was taking place.

I'm wondering whether you had ever provided advice to the previous democratic reform minister, our current leader of the official opposition, Mr. Poilievre, that policies should be put in place to make sure that we are protected. You mentioned Iran in today's testimony as well, not just China, and maybe there are others you want to comment on.

[Jenni Byrne]

As I said, I was never briefed on the potential of foreign interference leading into elections. There were no reports I was privileged to or that I received. There were no briefings by CSIS saying that candidates were compromised. There was no report, for example, like the one leading into the 2019 election campaign. That went from NSICOP through to the PCO and up to the Prime Minister and said there was a concern by CSIS officials that there was going to be foreign interference in the 2019 campaign. That never happened.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

It would also not be likely that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Time is up.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Next is Madame Normandin.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to return to the matter of local interference. You spoke earlier about the Tides Foundation situation. When you were a campaign manager, you tried to obtain assistance to counter this election interference.

[Jenni Byrne]

Well, as I said, I was never briefed as a campaign manager on foreign interference. There was not one time that I was briefed as the national campaign director or as the deputy chief of staff that CSIS had a concern on foreign interference leading into an election campaign.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

You were never briefed on foreign or domestic interference?

[Jenni Byrne]

No.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Then what about interference by other countries, just to make sure. You were never given information about interference by Russia or the United States? The possibility that there might have been such interference was never discussed from a strategic standpoint?

[Jenni Byrne]

There was never any briefing that I received that there was foreign interference leading into either of the two national election campaigns that I ran.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I'd like you to tell us, without reference to briefings and strictly based on your own personal knowledge, whether you ever considered the possibility that there might be interference from Russia, the United States, Iran or any other country, in the course of your work as a campaign manager. Completely aside from anything to do with briefings, I'd like to know whether you, as a national campaign manager, had ever considered such a possibility.

[Jenni Byrne]

No, there was no concern in terms of interference. The only discussion we had.... We know that leading into the 2015 election campaign, the Liberal Party of Canada worked very closely with the Democrats in the U.S. in developing their database and campaign techniques, but that would have been the only conversation we had. I think it's probably safe to say, and I would agree, that it did not seem to constitute interference. That just seemed to be the Liberal Party deciding to go to the United States to usurp some campaign techniques from the Americans.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Never, at any time, did the issue of foreign interference ever arise in campaign management discussions?

[Jenni Byrne]

No, there was never a discussion, except leading into the 2015 campaign when media reported that the Tides Foundation gave at least $1.5 million to Leadnow to run a campaign to support 29 Liberal and NDP candidates in 29 electoral districts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

In the spirit of non-partisanship, I'm going to attempt to find some common ground on some things I think we can agree on.

You would agree that a full independent public inquiry might be or is the best way for us to go back as far as we need to go to reassure Canadians that there is a fulsome investigation and review, with recommendations coming back to the House of Commons?

[Jenni Byrne]

I agree.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You'd be willing to go back as far as necessary to ensure that the testimony we'd hear would cover, in a non-partisan way, both ruling parties and both governing parties in the last two decades?

[Jenni Byrne]

Yes.