Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 11th, 2023

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

In that instance, though, it's your testimony here, for the purpose of this committee, that for capturing these processes, there should be clear laws in place so that if CSIS has information or intelligence that is verified, as per Mr. German, of a candidate seeking out foreign support within a domestic nomination or election, it should automatically trigger a criminal investigation that has with it a criminal responsibility, which you outlined as jail time.

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Yes, but the problem we currently have with CSIS and the RCMP is that their chain of command and the reporting goes directly to the Prime Minister, and that's where the road blocks.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Your testimony is that we should have a non-partisan arm's-length government agency, independent of Parliament and empowered by Parliament, that would be responsible for the full safeguarding of our democracy to ensure these types of interactions are fully verified, fully investigated and ultimately fully prosecuted?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Absolutely.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

It's called NSIRA.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How is that working for us?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Are we serious? We were doing so good. Let's just maintain how great we were all doing.

Thank you for that line of questioning. I appreciate it.

We're going into a quick second round. We'll give three minutes to Mr. Cooper, followed by three minutes to Mr. Turnbull, a minute to Madame Normandin and a minute to Mr. Green.

Go ahead, Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I note for the record that the Xinhua News Agency and the People's Daily were banned from being at Prime Minister Harper's 2013 Arctic tour, and that in an August 22, 2014, CBC article, Prime Minister Harper's spokesperson said with respect to Xinhua and the People's Daily that neither of them were welcome.

I am going to ask Mr. Juneau-Katsuya a couple of questions.

First of all, you conducted an interview with CBC in which you commented on Kenny Chiu. You said something to the effect that the Chinese community in his riding has been manipulated by the CCP. Can you elaborate on that?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

One of the strategies of foreign interference by the Chinese is to infiltrate a community and influence or even bully the community into acting or working with a certain perspective. With the avenue of social media, a great exploitation has been started to simply launch negative campaigns against certain individuals, which will eventually influence the community.

The Canadian Chinese community has been well educated for decades on how much reach the Chinese government has had in the community. They know they are under observation. They have not been able to report it to the authorities, and when they did, the authorities in the past were not able to investigate adequately, so they felt totally alone.

They adapted to the situation, and unfortunately what we have is a community that very often reads Chinese newspapers, which are affected or manipulated by the state and deliver their own message. At the end of the day, they know that within the community there are agents of influence—Canadians acting on behalf of the Chinese government—reporting on individuals. Now, if that was not enough, we recently discovered there were secret Chinese police stations in the community.

That form of supervision, intimidation and bullying has basically controlled many in the Chinese community, who, in great numbers, have relatives back in homeland China.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

In the Steveston—Richmond East riding, and in other ridings in the Lower Mainland and the GTA with a large population of Chinese Canadians, there was a significant drop in turnout and participation in the 2021 election. Do you think that's a coincidence?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Absolutely not. That is also part of the manipulation.

We have seen, for example, Chinese foreign students being told and instructed by the consulate, after being given a document with pictures of candidates, to go door to door and speak in Chinese to constituents, saying, “You vote for this person; you do not vote for that person.” Then they pretend that they are capable of knowing who they are voting for.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, you have the same time.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for your testimony today.

Mr. Juneau-Katsuya, I'll start with you.

You have explicitly stated that we can prove that every government has been compromised, from Mulroney's to Trudeau's, which is a big statement. I noted that I think you also said that previously at the ethics committee.

We also heard from Mr. Bourrie that he was asked to spy on the Dalai Lama and PM Harper at the time, and that he blew the whistle and Harper did nothing. I connect this with what we saw a couple of years later, because I believe that was in 2012, if I am not mistaken. In 2014, PM Harper signed a 30-year trade deal with China. Many experts at the time expressed really grave concerns about how this might affect our national security.

Mr. Juneau-Katsuya, would you say that PM Harper was soft on China?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

He became soft. It started with smoking guns when he was elected the first time, even quoting me occasionally in the House of Commons, but with time, agents of influence were capable of gaining access to him and changed the course of his decision-making.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

Did the 30-year trade deal signed by the Harper government compromise national security, in your view?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

National interests at least, definitely.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Okay.

You spoke to a trade imbalance in your previous remarks. Was that a result...? Is that a fallout or an implication...?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

That imbalance has been present for decades now. It's always been present. We always had a trade deficit with China, so it didn't change anything. It didn't improve anything either.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Did you table, or can you table, your suggestions from your opening remarks? I believe we should have them, but I'd like to see them in writing if possible. I thought they were really good.

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

I did share my document with the clerk.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Wonderful.

Mr. German, I know you've spoken a lot about money laundering. I would be interested in any further reflections you have on what we really need to do to prevent the stream of money that may be flowing in to support foreign interference.

[Dr. Peter German]

Money is always present in these discussions. As I tried to point out, I think we have to have robust legislation, which is something Michel alluded to, and it has to be enforceable. Not only does that mean we need investigative tools and processes, but we need adequately empowered enforcement agencies. That includes the Elections Canada office. It has a good investigative unit, but they need the resources and the access and so forth to make these things happen.

Money is critical in all of this, and we do have the intelligence there. It's a matter of tapping into it and using it.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Madame Normandin.