Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 16th, 2023

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

What kind of threats were made to your family in Hong Kong?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Well, that's.... I don't know, quite simply. As with many Canadians with family in authoritarian states, I long ago deliberately made the decision not to communicate with them in order to—

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Were there some red flags that caused you to make that decision?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Yes, there were. They were very public flags. One was when Beijing began its violation of the 50-year Sino-British agreement between the United Kingdom and the People's Republic of China governing Hong Kong.

You will recall that around the time of 2018 and 2019, Beijing started to violate that treaty and cracked down on the civil and human rights of Hong Kongers. It began with an attempt to impose an extradition treaty on Hong Kong that would have allowed the PRC to extradite anybody from Hong Kong for much broader reasons, which would have undermined the rule of law. It subsequently led to the introduction of a draconian new national security law, the results of which we've seen in recent years.

When those actions were taken by the PRC, out of an abundance of caution I decided to cut off communications with my family in Hong Kong. As a result, I don't know what's happened to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

It's a difficult thing to do, but it's something that many Canadians who have family back in authoritarian states have to go through.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Madame Gaudreau is next.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to continue along the same lines.

What's it like when the Globe and Mail—a responsible publication that does its homework—and Alliance Canada Hong Kong confirm your fears and the fact that you weren't being paranoid?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

It was shocking to find out that a diplomat in Canada was targeting my family and I, that he was using his diplomatic power, rights and immunity to obtain information on my family in China, in order to pressure me and other members to influence debates that were going on in the House of Commons. It was shocking.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Freedom of expression is a source of pride in our democracy.

Did finding out about this from a newspaper hinder you in exercising your freedom of expression?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

It didn't change anything for me.

I firmly believe that the constitutional principles underlying our institutions reflect our faith in democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Those are the universal principles on which Canada and other democracies around the world were founded. This will not affect my view.

I think we need to step up our efforts to defend those principles.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I am well aware that there are people, including members here today—such as you, Mr. Chong, and the chair—who regularly stand up for the rights of Uyghurs.

You're saying that nothing has changed since this happened. It will not change your view.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

No, absolutely not.

I believe even more strongly that we have to stand up for these principles in the face of these threats. These principles are all we have. At the end of the day, all of our institutions and all of our laws are based on these foundational principles, which are the belief in freedom, the belief in human rights, the belief in democracy and the belief in the rule of law. They are not just the principles that the Canadian state is founded on, but also the principles that other western democracies are founded upon.

We are under pressure, clearly—not just Canada, but other democracies—from authoritarian states. Freedom House has published an annual survey for decades now that shows that democracies have been rocked back on their heels and are under pressure.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I worry for your family here, in Canada. I know that you have cut almost all ties with the rest of your family because of the pressure caused by the situation. You may feel free to speak your mind, but there is collateral damage.

Are your family members worried? Have they spoken to you about it?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

They've spoken to me about it a little.

I have assured my family that we are not going to change our principles or our views. We must stay the course.

I would say that what was disconcerting was to know that on St. George Street in Toronto, a diplomat was working to collect information about me.

I live near Toronto and I'm often at the University of Toronto, which is just down the street, meeting with policy experts and other experts. To know that a mere several blocks away, for several years, somebody was actively trying to collect information about me and my family in the PRC was deeply disconcerting, and to know that the Government of Canada knew about this and didn't do anything about it was deeply disappointing.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have one last question.

We talked about the briefings, which are really general in nature. If the person being targeted is at one of the briefings, will they be given enough information to recognize the signs that they are being targeted by foreign interference threat activity?

When this happened to you, were you able to connect the dots, as they say? Did the briefing help you to realize what had happened, or was it inadequate?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I think the government should ensure that all members, all parliamentarians, are aware of foreign interference in general. I'm talking about members of government at both levels, provincial and federal. It's also especially important to inform members who are being directly targeted by an authoritarian regime.

I think the government needs to do both at the same time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We now go to you, Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

As always, everything is through the chair, but first I want to thank you so much, Mr. Chong, for coming here today.

I imagine it has been a very hard period of time in your life to wrestle with these realities. What you said earlier about living your life as a member of Parliament, as a human being, and just down the street there is somebody who is gathering information, to what intent you don't know.... It is very hard to fight a battle that you don't even know is happening.

At any time, did CSIS advise you or your family of harm or threat that could happen?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Yes. The briefing I received on June 24, 2021, was a briefing about foreign interference threat activities. It was general in nature, but it provided very good information about the tactics and the approaches that authoritarian states like the PRC use. It was quite helpful.

I think it's a briefing that all MPs should receive. It is helpful to equip MPs with as much information as possible about how these tactics work so that they are forewarned and forearmed whenever they find themselves in a situation where that might be happening.

As I said earlier, there was no specific mention that Mr. Wei Zhao, in the Toronto consulate, was targeting me in particular.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That is the challenge. You were told of the general battle but not of the specific people in the battle, and so it was hard for you to address it.

Since this has all come up, has there been any follow-up action around keeping you and your family safe?

You talked earlier about no longer having connections with family overseas. I'm wondering whether there has been any discussion about how that could be addressed in a more helpful way, as opposed to just cutting off ties.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

The Sergeant-at-Arms of the House of Commons indicated that if I saw anything untoward, I was to report it to him. CSIS has made a similar offer. Those invitations for us to convey any perceived threats that we might be facing are welcome. I think those are good things for intelligence agencies and for the Sergeant-at-Arms here to undertake.

My view, as I said in my opening recommendations, is that there are two sorts of activities that have to take place to protect members. One is that members need to be briefed in general about the tactics and nature of foreign interference threat activities. Second, with regard to individual members who are being targeted, if the government obtains information that an individual member and their family are being targeted, then that briefing, with specific details about the persons involved, needs to be conveyed to that particular member.

I think both of those things should happen in concert.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That makes a lot of sense to me, because it allows for a response and a more coordinated effort in addressing those issues.

Do you have a sense of how long this has been happening, where that information was being gathered and how they were gathering that information? Did they give you any understanding of whether you were being wiretapped? How were they gathering the information?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

What I was told by Mr. Vigneault was that Mr. Wei Zhao was the diplomat involved in gathering information about me from his posting in Toronto. Beyond that, everything else I know is from the reports in the Globe and Mail, which highlight the breakdown in the machinery of government that I highlighted in my opening remarks. We would not be finding these things out from the Globe and Mail if we had a properly functioning and working national security architecture that informed members and their families about specific threat activities.

As I pointed out, the U.K. Parliament has protocols in place to inform members at large—all 640 or so members of the House—about persons who are in general targeting the House. They also have protocols in place to inform individual members when they are specifically being targeted. I think these things clearly should have been put in place a while ago in Canada.

Regarding your question about what else I know through the Globe reports, this individual, Mr. Wei Zhao, apparently came to Canada in 2018, and CSIS already had a significant intelligence file on this individual when he arrived here. Some of it was from the Communications Security Establishment and some of it was from U.S. intelligence. The Globe also reported that Global Affairs Canada had known about this individual for three years and knew that this individual was targeting not just me but other members of Parliament.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I think your point is that national security shouldn't be going through the media.

You talked about having the release of documents. I see how important that is, but I also see how important it is that we maintain our level of national security. When those documents are released, should it just be to the member who's impacted, or do you feel there should be another process as well?