Evidence of meeting #79 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
I know. When did CSIS inform you that it would need you to inform the MP that this happened?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
CSIS did not tell me that they needed me to inform the MP. We discussed—
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
No. When were you informed that something had to be done? Someone has to have told you that.
Someone must have advised you, as the Minister of Emergency Preparedness. You didn't just take it upon yourself one morning to send a letter to every member of Parliament telling them to be careful.
What happened? How did you come to that conclusion? Who advised you to send that letter?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
As the Minister of Public Safety, I received information with respect to the activities of hostile state actors, including the People's Republic of China. No one told me to act to warn you. It was a decision that I made. It was my job to protect you and to protect all Canadians and our institutions.
I believed the best way to do that was to provide you with information so that you could have an awareness of the threat. I also then suggested to CSIS that if there were individuals who they believed would be particularly vulnerable to threats of interference, they should conduct awareness briefings with those individuals. They did not tell me who or why, but I have learned subsequently that they in fact did a number of those briefings.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Why didn't you ask? It was a threat to our democracy. It was a threat to members of Parliament. Why didn't you ask if there were some MPs who were specifically targeted? That was your responsibility as minister. Why didn't you?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Well, these are operational matters of intelligence and a responsibility for CSIS. They were collecting intelligence and they were taking the steps and working with other national security intelligence agencies in order to protect the members.
I did not have any information that any individual MP was targeted or in any way threatened with interference. However—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
I am going to end that. Sometimes it's just nice to get a fulsome answer without my speaking in between. Members know that when the beep goes off they don't get to comment again, but it's just a matter of giving somebody from whom we say we want important information the opportunity to give us the information.
Minister Blair, I'm sure you're noticing that one o'clock is approaching. Are you able to provide me some leniency, please?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Yes, ma'am, of course.
I have some responsibilities in about 15 or 20 minutes' time, but I'll be happy to give you what I am able to.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
Our interpreters have been going for almost three hours, so we don't want to leave it too long, but just quickly, five minutes will go to Ms. Romanado.
Liberal
Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Through you, I'd like to thank the minister for being here.
I want to touch base just in following up on the previous round of questions.
Minister Blair, I know the communication you sent out to members of Parliament was actually your initiative in response to a December 18, 2020, motion in the House on foreign interference. I want to thank you for taking that initiative at the time to bring awareness to the issue by tabling a report in the House and writing directly to members of Parliament. I believe, if I remember correctly, that we even received it through snail mail, with an actual printed copy, to make sure we received it, given the number of emails we receive. I want to thank you for bringing it to the attention of members of Parliament.
We heard a little earlier, when I was speaking with the national security and intelligence adviser, about the importance of making sure that members of Parliament, senators and their staff understand what foreign interference is, what it looks like and what kinds of tactics are used by hostile state actors in terms of trying to get information from members of Parliament.
Can you elaborate a bit on what your thoughts are on its being a reciprocal responsibility? For instance, intelligence agencies really don't understand politics, and politicians sometimes don't understand intelligence agencies. Members of Parliament may be privy to information that would be useful to intelligence agencies, but we're not aware of the fact that the intelligence might be helpful.
Again, could you talk a bit about the importance of increasing awareness about it among parliamentarians, and what we can do to help each other make sure we are working together to combat and deter any foreign interference?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
It's a very important question.
As politicians, first of all, we work in very diverse communities with diasporas that have come from all over the world to make Canada their home. They also have representation from various governments and government officials from their home country. It is one of our responsibilities as politicians to work with that diaspora but also with some of those other government agencies or actors.
Every government, I think, attempts in a positive way to gain some influence with the Government of Canada. It's something that we're all aware of and subject to, but it's very important that politicians be aware that sometimes that attempted influence can exceed the limit and take the form of interference. Sometimes it's important for people to understand nefarious intent and who is in fact a hostile state actor. It's not just normally trying to have good relations or serve their communities; they may have other intents.
Educating and informing parliamentarians so they recognize when that influence attempt that we all experience every day can translate into acts of interference.... We need to be aware of that. We need to make sure that we protect the integrity of what we do, the integrity of our institutions and, of course, the integrity of our elections. Keeping people aware of that, I think, is our first line of defence.
There are other things that we can do and we do in order to protect our Canadian institutions, but our best line of defence is informing, first of all, those of us who are working in the communities, and, as well, sharing information with Canadians so that they know how to protect themselves and how to be more resilient in the face of some of the interference attempts or even some of the things we know have taken place in our country. Shining a light on that, informing people on that, is very important. I think it's an important question.
It's what I was trying to do when I issued that.... I tabled it in public. It was on our website. I wanted to make sure Canadians could see it, but I also knew that sending it to all parliamentarians was the best way to extend that information out to every part of Canada, into every community, through our colleagues in Parliament.
Liberal
Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC
Thank you very much.
On another point, I know we talked a little earlier about this reference to a secret email that you didn't access. You've made it very clear; that is not, in fact, how it works.
Information that needs to get to you doesn't go into some email, like your Gmail account, that only you have the password to. This is a physical terminal that is not located in your office. It is located in a secure location and, to be able to access that information, someone with top secret clearance would get the information printed and make sure you're briefed on it in a secure location. Is that correct?
Liberal
Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
That is correct. There was no top secret secure terminal located in the minister's office, nor should there be. That information is highly classified and sensitive, and needs to be handled with great care. CSIS would, in fact, identify that which needed to be.... With this concept of need to know, national security intelligence agencies would make an assessment that this is information the minister needs to know, and they would bring it to me. If they didn't make that determination, I would not get the opportunity to see it.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
Thank you very much for your time and attention.
Ms. Geddes, you didn't get any questions or comments, and the minister didn't need you to provide any insight, so he's well aware of his file. Did you want to add anything today?
Tricia Geddes Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I would underline that it is the department's and the agency's responsibility to be able to access those networks to be able to provide information. In fact, as a deputy minister, I don't have access to those terminals either. We rely on our staff to ensure that we're provided with intelligence in a timely fashion.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
If there is anything that comes to mind, whether it be later or whenever, please send it to the clerk, and the clerk will have it translated in both official languages and shared with members.
With that, we thank you, on behalf of PROC committee members, for your time and attention today. We wish you the best of everything.
For PROC committee members, Tuesday, June 6, we will have the Right Honourable David Johnston appearing. We have been successful in our deviation request, so it will be a three-hour meeting that morning.
We will see you soon. Keep well and safe. See you next Tuesday.