Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 6th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 80 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today to study the question of privilege related to the member for Wellington—Halton Hills and other members.

I would like to remind all members and witnesses that care must be taken with regard to the earpieces for interpretation. Please be mindful to not place your earpiece near the microphone, as this can result in a feedback loop that may cause an acoustic shock, which could in turn cause injury to the interpreters. Sometimes when we're speaking we don't notice that we're doing it, so be mindful.

All comments will be addressed through the chair. I have asked members and our guests today to keep an eye on each other when the exchange is happening because you'll see a little bit of a nod to say “I want the floor back.” That would just help with me not having to interrupt because I would like to maximize the time that we have.

We have with us today the Right Honourable David Johnston, independent special rapporteur on foreign interference. To declare any conflicts of interest, he was the president at the University of Waterloo when I not only attended, but graduated, so we do know each other from the region of Waterloo.

Mr. Johnston, you will have up to 10 minutes for your opening comments.

Before I do that, there are some rumblings or thoughts that there might be votes taking place today. As there might be votes, I would just like agreement that if a vote takes place during opening comments or the first round of questions, we would use the voting app and continue working. Are we okay with that? I will pause just to make sure everyone can get their pictures in, and once everyone's set and in place, we will continue. That would maximize our time together.

Because we have three hours together, I am also going to change up the way we do questions. We will start off with 10-minute rounds instead of six minutes, and then we will continue with the normal five, five, two and a half, two and a half, five and five minutes. We will take a pause halfway through the meeting just to have a quick break as needed.

With that, Mr. Johnston, the floor is yours.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

You will have 10 minutes.

[The Right Hon. David Johnston, Independent Special Rapporteur on Foreign Interference, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the members of the committee for having me today to speak on this important issue and the work I am conducting.

On March 15 of this year, I was appointed by the government as the independent special rapporteur on foreign interference, with a broad mandate to assess the extent of foreign interference and make recommendations on how to better protect our democracy.

My first report found that foreign governments, including the People's Republic of China, are working in hostile and clandestine ways to undermine our democracy. I came to that conclusion after an intensive review of top secret intelligence and interviews with senior intelligence, security and elected officials.

Methods of foreign interference are rapidly becoming more sophisticated. I have identified significant shortcomings in the government's ability to detect, deter and combat this threat.

This must be remedied urgently.

That is why how to best fight foreign interference will be the focus of the next phase of my work, which will be a public process.

Beginning next month, I will hold public hearings where Canadians will hear publicly from government representatives, security and intelligence officials, subject matter experts—and critically—those diaspora communities who are most impacted by the hostile efforts of foreign governments.

For this work, I will be supported by three special advisors with expertise in national security intelligence, law, and diaspora community matters.

Together, we will develop recommendations on the urgent changes necessary to protect Canada’s democratic institutions and, crucially, Canadians’ faith in them.

Before I conclude, I think it is important that I acknowledge the motion passed last week in the House of Commons. I have deep respect for the House of Commons, and for its right to express an opinion on my work.

I have heard clearly the disagreement with my recommendation not to call a public inquiry, as well as allegations about my integrity and my independence. These allegations are, put simply, false, and the decision to repeat them does not make them true.

The issue of foreign interference deserves serious and robust debate. I will continue to invite disagreement on my recommendations, but I will not be deterred from completing my work.

I would respectfully remind this committee, and all Canadians, that I am not simply asking you to take me at my word. Experts and parliamentarians with the necessary security clearance will be able to review not only my work but also the detailed intelligence on which it is based.

Should NSICOP, NSIRA and opposition leaders disagree with my conclusions, I have asked them to say so publicly, which they are very much permitted to do.

To conclude, I would remind Canadians and the members of this committee that my mandate is only one part of an array of work and initiatives that can be undertaken to address this threat.

Therefore, I encourage the contributions of others, including this committee, to help ensure Canada is well equipped to detect, deter, and combat foreign interference.

Thank you, and I welcome questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Johnston, for those opening comments.

I will share that the bells are ringing. The screen is on for everyone's information. I do believe we can get through our first two rounds, so I will start with 10 minutes for you, Mr. Brock, followed by 10 minutes for Mr. Turnbull.

Mr. Brock, go ahead.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll be splitting my time with my colleague, Mr. Barrett.

Good morning, Mr. Johnston, and thank you for your attendance today.

Mr. Johnston, in 2010, Justin Trudeau, as a private citizen, before entering into politics, told CBC Radio that you were a great dinner companion. He specifically said, “We had great conversations around dinner tables around all sorts of things.” This was said around the same time you were being appointed as our Governor General.

Were you aware of that statement, sir?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, I was not aware of that statement in connection with Mr. Trudeau. My meeting with him occurred when he was 10 or 11 years old, skiing with my children four or five times—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Johnston. We'll get into those areas. My time is very limited—

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

I have had no meeting with him since that time—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have another question for you.

As Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau described you as a lifelong “family friend”, a friendship cemented over many summers as neighbouring cottagers in the Laurentians. You never corrected the Prime Minister in his characterization of your relationship with him. Isn't that correct?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, the connection I had with Mr. Trudeau—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Mr. Johnston, I apologize for interrupting you, but the question is, did you—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm going to pause. I didn't think it would be this early into the meeting. Mr. Brock, you and I have had this exchange before, so you know very well that comments are through the chair.

I can assure you that the Prime Minister and I have not gone to the cottage together, so let's just pause and take a second. That's why I wanted to provide a bit more time. I will provide leniency to ensure we get to where you need to get to.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The question to Mr. Johnston was, did you characterize, or did you change the statement that Justin Trudeau, as Prime Minister, made about you being a lifelong “family friend”, a friendship cemented over many summers as neighbouring cottagers in the Laurentians? Did you confirm or deny that, sir?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, I was not familiar with the statement that has just been made. I was friends with the father of Mr. Trudeau, through his life in politics. We tried to engage him with the Université de Montréal to be a professor on his return.

My last particular meeting with the current Prime Minister—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Johnston. I'm going to be getting into areas where you can expand upon things that you've done with the Prime Minister.

I need to move on, because my time is limited.

In 2016, six years into your role as Governor General, you gave an interview to CTV. You were asked about your views of having the Trudeau family living on the grounds of Rideau Hall. Without pause or hesitation, you said, “It's wonderful because their children play in the garden where our grandchildren play and it's pretty exciting to have the next generation together bringing the place alive”.

Was that statement accurate?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, I don't remember that particular statement, but it is true that the Trudeau family lived in the Rideau Cottage—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Johnston.

You further state, in the same interview, that the Trudeaus were “very good tenants”.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

On a point of order, go ahead, Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

We've seen, now repeated, Mr. Brock cutting off the witness, who is not being given the chance to respond.

I would appreciate it if we could at least let Mr. Johnston respond to the question he's being asked. I think that's decorum and normal practice.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Madam Chair, if I may respond, my time is very limited. The question was centred on whether or not the statement was accurate. It did not require the witness to elaborate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm going to respond really quickly.

I feel that PROC has high ratings. We've been here for a long time. I think you now know how I operate as chair, as well.

I do believe these points of order and me interrupting, which I don't want to do, actually take away from the time, which we're talking about being so precious. Allowing the witness to finish a sentence I do not think would take too much time. I think it's appropriate to let the witness answer.

Mr. Brock, I agree that the time is yours, but let's just be mindful and I think we can get through this. I know you can, Mr. Brock, so I'm going to pass you back the floor.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

You further stated that your wife Sharon and you became good friends with the Trudeaus, that your relationship with Pierre Trudeau went back to “children's days” when the families would get together to ski at Mont Tremblant. You stated that the three Trudeau boys were the same age as your five daughters, and that you became a “ski party” at Mont Tremblant.

You stated that your children had “enormous respect” for Pierre Elliott Trudeau. He was “a wonderful father and very good with children”, who at this point were teenagers, and he would lead them into discussions such as about democracies in the world.

In 2017, sir, you interviewed with Paul Wells. You talked about knowing Justin Trudeau since he was six years old, as both families shared adjacent cottages in the Laurentians.

In 2017, sir, the Prime Minister paid tribute to you, calling you “a family friend” and “a friend of [his] father”. He ended his comments by saying to both you and your wife, “Thank you, my friends.” You privately or publicly did not object to the assessment of your friendship with Justin Trudeau.

Let's fast-forward to your press conference of May 23. You are on record stating the following basic facts of your so-called friendship with Justin Trudeau. These are your words, sir: that when your children were ages seven to 12, you had a condo at the foot of Mont Tremblant. Pierre Elliott Trudeau had a country home 50 kilometres away. On five occasions over seven years, he and his three kids came and parked their car in the lot. On one occasion, you drove the kids back to their mother's house. You knew Justin Trudeau as a student at McGill. You had no contact with Justin Trudeau until he was an elected MP, and later, as Prime Minister.

The point is, sir, that you said you had no contact with Justin Trudeau for 40 years, not as a friend. You said those are the facts. Later that day, you interviewed with CTV anchor, Omar Sachedina, and stated that your relationship with Justin Trudeau was “an unfortunate allegation”. You largely confirmed the same details as at your press conference, but changed the frequency of ski trips to “five occasions, over two or three years” as opposed to over seven years.

Mr. Johnston, what we have before this committee are two completely different descriptions of your relationship with Justin Trudeau. Those two different descriptions cannot be accurate at the same time.

My question is simple and direct, Mr. Johnston. Were you telling Canadians the truth on May 23 or back in 2016?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, I am telling the truth in connection with my relationship with Prime Minister Trudeau, which goes back to when our children were teenagers. During the course of almost 40 years, we had no meetings, no dinners at one another's homes, no particular contact. I was a friend of the father, etc., but that was the extent of the contacts.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll resume the time there.

Sir, you were a member of the Trudeau Foundation until your appointment to this position. Is that correct?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, I was a member of the association—which is like shareholders in a general meeting—of the Trudeau Foundation, not a member of the board of directors.

I joined it in 2018, just a year or so after I stepped down as Governor General, because I've had a very long concern and interest in student support—graduate students, scholarships.