Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 6th, 2023

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Johnston's report outlines problems in transmitting information from CSIS to the Prime Minister and ministers.

Mr. Johnston states in his report that what we heard in the media was more or less true. He also says that the Prime Minister and ministers didn't receive the information. When they said they didn't know, they were right. They were really didn't have the information.

I'm not criticizing that; that's not what I'm mean. However, Mr. Johnston states that information pathways, CSIS and the public service were each partly responsible. However, the remarks of Mr. Stanton, Mr. Wilczynski, Ms. Thomas and Mr. Wark showed that there was a problem with the political offices.

I'd like Mr. Johnston to tell us about that.

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, I agree entirely with the member who just raised the question that we have much improvement to do in how we crystalize information, how we move it into responsible hands, how we ensure that appropriate action is taken and have accountability for it. We have much work to do, and that's the task we should get on with, with urgency.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

I'm going to ask a delicate question, Madam Chair, and I wouldn't want it to be misinterpreted.

There are times when one might prefer not to know certain things.

Could it be that the political offices are reacting to the possibility that ministers and the Prime Minister didn't really want to receive that information?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, I don't think I have many comments to make on what kinds of messages were given at that time. However, we expect from our public servants in this country that they will be non-partisan, that they will be professional, and that they will provide clear information and recommendations to their ministers and to our systems of ministerial accountability. We should expect that they would act appropriately. When they do not, then we should hold them accountable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Johnston, for your generosity of time in allowing us a few extra questions.

I want to come back to the issue of the contributions of Sheila Block. In questioning, you said that Ms. Block had contributed financially to other parties. Which parties are you aware of that she contributed to?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

My understanding is that her contributions have been quite widespread. I think she has supported people in political office who bear other than Liberal qualities, but I don't have specific information I can give you.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

However, she told you that she had contributed to other parties as well.

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Yes, I think she has been supporting and been prepared to assist other former students and people who have been affiliated with parties other than the Liberal Party.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

In response to a question from Ms. Kwan, you said that the appearance of a conflict of interest has to be fact-based. Those facts, her frequent contributions to the Liberal Party, are part of the public domain. Do you not understand why some people would question the appearance of a conflict of interest when those facts—we're not talking about speculation—are before us?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

I don't understand the question. I'm sorry.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

You said that an appearance of a conflict of interest needs to be fact-based. She has factually given thousands of dollars to the Liberal Party, so do you understand why people see that as an appearance of a conflict of interest?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, as I said before, I don't see Ms. Block's providing contributions to political parties as a conflict of interest. I think that over a period of 15 years or so it's something like $300 or $400 to the Liberal Party, but my understanding is that she has made contributions in a wide direction: former students and so on.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

It's been thousands of dollars.

My final question is this: In your report, you said there was no evidence of illegal donations, but we know that the only way to get this information is through the complaint process with Elections Canada or the commissioner of elections. That was certainly the case in the Dean Del Mastro case.

Was that done? Was there any evidence around auditing campaigns? Since you didn't meet with the commissioner or Elections Canada, how did you come to that conclusion?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

It's based on the fact that our understanding from those officials is that there were no findings of fault and, certainly, no activities leading to charges with respect to the 2019 and 2021 elections.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

With that, the Right Honourable David Johnston has been very generous with his time today.

On behalf of PROC committee members, I want to thank you for letting us know when you were going to be able to appear and for responding promptly to our communications to you, right away. We wish you and your loved ones well. Thank you for your service.

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you to all members of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

With that, PROC committee members, we'll see you on Thursday. Keep well and safe.

The meeting is adjourned.