Evidence of meeting #81 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was intelligence.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Vincent Rigby  Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual
Eric Janse  Acting Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons
Michel Bédard  Interim Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
Patrick McDonell  Sergeant-at-Arms and Corporate Security Officer, House of Commons

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 81 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The committee is meeting today to study the question of privilege related to the member for Wellington—Halton Hills and other members.

I will remind you to not have your earpiece near the microphone, to use your earpiece and not somebody else's. Ideally what I'm realizing, because I am returning to my mission for interpreters and fighting for them, is IT will know when it's your turn to speak, so you don't need to push the button to turn it on or off. That way we make sure one person is speaking at a time, and we let these great people do their work. So just lean in and they'll know it's your turn. I'm confident we can do this very well. As always, we will maintain a consolidated speaking list.

Today we have with us Mr. Vincent Rigby, visiting professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University.

Welcome to PROC. I understand that you've shared your comments with interpreters.

With that, I will pass the floor over to you for up to five minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Vincent Rigby Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It's greatly appreciated, and I greatly appreciate hearing that I have five minutes. I thought I only had four. I have lots of time.

I served as national security and intelligence adviser from January 2020 to June 2021. This term came at the end of a 30-year career in which I held senior positions in a variety of security departments, including National Defence, the Privy Council Office, Global Affairs and Public Safety. In all these positions, I was either a producer or a consumer of intelligence. Security intelligence was at the heart of my public service career.

I am pleased that Canada is finally having a public debate about national security and intelligence. However, this is not the way to go about it.

I condemn the individual or individuals who have leaked highly classified intelligence. These leaks undermine our national security, and they potentially put lives at risk. They also present an incomplete and potentially misleading picture of national security concerns. Providing a few examples of isolated intelligence without any context does not make for informed discussions; it is akin to proudly displaying a complicated jigsaw puzzle with most of the pieces missing.

The men and women of our intelligence community are highly trained and dedicated professionals, but is that community without flaws? Unequivocally, no. Since I left government, I have spoken publicly about these flaws.

I co-authored a report last year with Thomas Juneau from the University of Ottawa, who I think was a witness before this committee last week. It was supported by retired senior security officials with close to 300 years of collective experience. It identified systemic weaknesses in our national security system, with everything from a lack of security culture and strategy to shortfalls in information sharing, governance and transparency. All of these played out, not only during the foreign interference controversy, but during the “freedom convoy” as well. I have commented publicly about that.

I was once part of that system, and I accept my share of responsibility for those failings, but my point is that even before the current storm over foreign interference, informed commentators were stating that our national security system was in peril and called for a review of related policies, governance and tools to help confront the very dangerous world in which we live. We have had no such review in nearly 20 years.

A highly politicized debate over one specific area of intelligence, however important, seemingly aimed at assigning individual blame is not the solution.

While I was national intelligence and security adviser, the pandemic and other issues consumed much of my time. I discussed foreign interference with the Prime Minister on at least one occasion formally, and I read intelligence reports on the topic and discussed them with colleagues. I fully understood that it was a serious long-standing and growing problem in Canada.

The July 2021 report on the targeting of Mr. Chong and other individual MPs was produced and distributed after my departure, but I am not surprised that this intelligence was not raised to the political level. This is where the system is particularly weak. The intelligence community produces thousands of reports a month, many of which I read over the course of my term. I would estimate that I read probably between 5,000 and 7,000 intelligence reports in my 18-month stint, but we did not have a formal system to flag important pieces of intelligence. What we had was ad hoc, and it was inconsistent.

I knew there was a problem. In response, I created a new DM intelligence committee, the DMIC, which put a greater premium on operational-level intelligence. I was concerned that important and actionable intelligence was not being appropriately flagged or followed up on. This committee was a step in the right direction, but it was still a work in progress when I departed in the summer of 2021.

Finally, I am aware that more steps are being taken to strengthen information sharing, but it should not be just for foreign interference. It should be for all intelligence. Reforms should include, first, a stronger intelligence capability at the centre to flag and fuse important intelligence to the Prime Minister and to other ministers. The government, in my view, should explore creating a position within PCO similar to the director of national intelligence, or the DNI, in the United States and separate from the NSIA.

Second, create a cabinet committee on national security, chaired by the PM, that meets regularly to receive intelligence briefings and discuss appropriate responses.

Last, promote greater transparency. Government should, among other things, produce annual public threat assessments, respond to NSICOP reports, publish intelligence priorities and share more intelligence outside the executive, including with members of Parliament. These are issues that have been discussed in government but have still not been implemented.

I'd be happy to discuss any of these issues in greater detail, especially those moving forward. I am here today as a witness because I care about this issue and I would like to see our national security be improved.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you very much, Mr. Rigby.

With that, we will start six-minute rounds.

As a reminder, the microphone will turn on and off for you, so you can take that off your plate.

Mr. Cooper, six minutes to you, through the chair.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Rigby, for being here.

Mr. Rigby, in May 2021 you were the national security and intelligence adviser to the Prime Minister. Did you receive the May 2021 CSIS issues management note indicating that there was intelligence that the Beijing regime intended to target MP Michael Chong, another MP and their families?

11:10 a.m.

Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Vincent Rigby

Not that I am aware of. I do not recall receiving that [Inaudible—Editor].

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

When did you first become aware of this issues management note?

11:10 a.m.

Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Vincent Rigby

Through the newspapers.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

That would have been in recent weeks.

11:10 a.m.

Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Vincent Rigby

Very recently. Yes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

On page 27 of the Johnston report, he indicates that the issues management note was sent to the attention of the then minister of public safety, Bill Blair, along with his chief of staff and deputy minister, via what he called the top secret network email.

Last Thursday when Minister Blair appeared before this committee, I asked him about this. He said that was not correct, that there is “no email account in which top secret information is shared with ministers.”

Given your familiarity, as the national security adviser, whose account of the facts is correct? Is it Mr. Johnston's? Is it Minister Blair's? Both can't be right.

11:10 a.m.

Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Vincent Rigby

Madam Chair, I can't speak to the details of how intelligence is shared in ministers' offices. It's done in different ways in different ministers' offices.

I, myself, rarely took things right off the system. I had hard-copy packages presented to me. That's the way we did it for the Prime Minister as well. That's how we did it for the Prime Minister's Office.

I'm not aware how Minister Blair organized his office, how they took material off the system and whether CSIS actually delivered this material in hard-copy form. I'm not aware how it would work in that individual minister's office.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

The system you're referring to is the top secret network.

11:10 a.m.

Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Vincent Rigby

It is a top secret network. There are many different systems, but yes.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Okay.

Would there have been emails sent? Minister Blair said there's no such thing, there's no account. But Johnston says, in his report, that this was sent by way of some form of email to his attention.

11:10 a.m.

Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Vincent Rigby

I honestly can't speak to the details, because I'm not aware. That is a question you'd have to ask the CSIS director or someone in the minister's office.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Okay.

You talked about briefing the Prime Minister on foreign interference. Did you see the PCO daily intelligence brief of February 21, 2020, which noted that there was a “subtle but effective” interference network by Beijing in the 2019 federal election?

11:10 a.m.

Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Vincent Rigby

My understanding is that was part of the daily intelligence brief that was put together by the international assessment secretariat, which worked under me.

I read, as I said earlier, between 5,000 and 7,000 documents. I do not remember that specific piece of intel. Those daily intelligence briefs would have anywhere from five, six, seven to 10 items, and I don't recall specifically seeing that or reacting to it.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

So it follows that you don't recall briefing the Prime Minister about that.

11:10 a.m.

Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Vincent Rigby

I briefed the Prime Minister more broadly on foreign interference. That would have included election interference, but briefing him specifically on that item, no.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Jody Thomas, when she appeared before the committee, indicated that the February 21, 2020, daily foreign intelligence brief would have been part of the Prime Minister's reading package. Is that your understanding?

11:10 a.m.

Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Vincent Rigby

What happens is that the daily intelligence brief is morphed into a weekly intelligence brief for the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister does not necessarily get the daily intelligence brief, but rather a weekly. The weekly would not necessarily cover every single item in every single daily.

What was plucked, I cannot recall. Obviously, I can't even recall that specific item, so I can't talk to that. It would be very difficult to categorically say that it automatically went from the daily to the weekly, which was for the Prime Minister.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Does the Prime Minister read his daily reading package, in your experience?

11:10 a.m.

Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Vincent Rigby

I can't speak to whether he read it on a daily basis. I don't know.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Does he read his weekly package?

11:10 a.m.

Visiting Professor, Max Bell School of Public Policy, McGill University, As an Individual

Vincent Rigby

I'm quite confident that he read his weekly.