Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 15th, 2023

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, dear colleague, Mr. Noormohamed.

Witnesses, first of all, thank you very much.

I have two brief questions.

Sometimes being at committee is like drinking from a firehose. We get a lot of information thrown at us. Then it's sometimes afterwards, upon reflection, that I'm trying to just get a sense of this.

Mr. Juneau-Katsuya, you have come before committee before. I believe it was this one. I'm sorry. I've seen you also at the ethics committee on the same issue.

You said in previous testimony you estimate that about 70% of the Chinese embassy staff are spies. For the purposes of this study, I like to track down my sources. Can you provide the committee with the source for that figure? I've spoken to other foreign policy experts, and they have a hard time putting the number at that high a figure.

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

That number comes from my experience while I was with CSIS.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Okay.

Again, you were at CSIS until the year....

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

I was there until 2000.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Okay.

Is it your sense that things could have changed since that time?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

If anything at all, it may have increased. Since the mid-1990s, as I testified before, we've noticed the foreign interference coming from the embassy in China. We found, in the record of Elections Canada that the embassy had given that year—1995—money to both the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party. We could see they were preparing the bed for this foreign interference.

Unfortunately, it was not understood or evaluated enough by CSIS, and we let this go on for decades. Even though I left CSIS after 2000, I kept working on the file and investigating the file for various clients. What we've seen is the Chinese become much more bold, much more audacious, in their way of operating, increasing the number of diplomats who are actually intelligence officers.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much for that.

I want to get a question to Mr. Jean. I'm probably not going to have enough time for an answer. I'm hoping that you can provide an answer in writing, Mr. Jean.

It's regarding the Australian model. You talked a little bit about what practices we should adopt.

What mistakes can we avoid regarding the Australian model for foreign registry? What measures can we take?

[Daniel Jean]

I think the foreign registry is one element in a broader strategy. We should not oversell it.

I would go narrow. I would make sure that it forces people who represent China.... It should be modelled on the Lobbying Act. People who are representing interests of China—maybe they are law firms; maybe they are others—should have to report their contacts like they do under the Lobbying Act. There should be penalties for people who choose to not comply, who will not report. The penalties should be meaningful—going back to the question of Mr. Cooper earlier.

You need to have good measures, measures that are going to deal with what the problem is. That's why I say that I would hope that the committee's work allows us to go above partisanship and develop a strategy that deals with what the problem is, what the best institutions are that we need to update and how we make sure that we are successful in correcting this thing.

Maybe I'm too naive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Juneau-Katsuya and Mr. Jean, thank you so much for your time today.

A couple of times it was mentioned that perhaps there would be documents that would be relevant for members to receive. I would ask that you send them to the clerk. We'll make sure they're in both official languages and circulated.

I also want to appreciate the fact that, I think one time it was mentioned, the number of witnesses was over 300 at all committees combined. The demand, the ask, is to go above partisanship, because when it comes to our institutions, it is essential that we protect them. We can talk as much as we want on the international stage about democratic institutions, but if we don't protect our own, what does that mean?

I really do appreciate the information you provided to us, and I wish you both a good rest of the day.

Committee members, we'll see you next Tuesday.

Keep well and safe.

The meeting is adjourned.