Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 15th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

No. They are five-minute rounds.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Okay.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Noormohamed, do you want to put your question on the record really quickly?

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Yes.

When you talked about risk, you talked about methods and sources. What are the risks to the ways in which Canadians might respond if we don't take those steps?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Associate Deputy Minister Geddes, I really enjoyed the last answer. We are limited in time, but I would love to have this answer in writing.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thanks very much, Madam Chair.

For the third time; I agree it's quite a challenge for you. My questions will be very brief.

Is it normal for Minister of Public Safety not to have the necessary information to ensure the safety of Canadians and Quebeckers?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It's very important for the Minister of Public Safety to have all the information necessary to do his job. That's why, as minister, I've tried to ascertain the challenges and put specific solutions in place. The new ministerial directive will reinforce our protocols. Yes, there are challenges—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Minister. The last time we met, some major challenges had arisen after the budget was adopted, and I'm aware of that. However, I wonder how one feels, as the Minister of Public Security, when it takes information leaks in the media for an alert to be issued.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Madam Chair, I entirely share my colleague's concerns about the matter of leaks. Yes, there's a problem there, but I trust our police services to conduct their investigations so that those responsible are brought to justice. For my part, however, I'm focusing on reinforcing information and intelligence management so the government can take the necessary measures to respond to all challenges.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Let me clarify my question.

CSIS told us it had ministerial directives. If they're preventive measures, as you said at the outset, and if you're doing your job—and I imagine you are—how is it that, as if by chance, action was taken after the leaks? Otherwise, the consul of the People's Republic of China would still be undermining our democracy.

How does someone feel when that happens?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Madam Chair, once again, the ministerial directive will both reinforce the protocols and prevent future information leaks. That's one of the objectives of that directive.

I've had very good discussions with the people in my department. My deputy minister may wish to add something about the—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Do you feel you failed in this instance and that now you'd like a do‑over? Be honest.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We will always do what has to be done to solve problems. That's my job.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney is next.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to come back to the foreign agent registry. I asked a question about how the diaspora would be included in the rollout of that program. Can I get something clear that says you're going to have a committee, that you're going to have...? I want to get that clarified. That's question number one.

The second question I have for the minister is on how Mr. Chong talked about the defensive briefing he received. At that time, he had no idea that he and his family, both overseas and here, were being targeted, but he did find it very helpful. I'm wondering, is there any movement towards having MPs all receiving some sort of defensive briefing because of how helpful it seems that it was? Also, how about candidates in future elections?

Could you answer those two questions?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Through you, Madam Chair, to my colleague Ms. Blaney, first I want to come to the question of engaging with diaspora communities. I took the opportunity to emphasize creating safe atmospheres in which we can engage them because of the heightened concerns around retaliation, but I also want to mention two other examples to Ms. Blaney, which I hope will be responsive.

One is the national security transparency group. That is a group in which we seek to engage directly with diaspora and other communities, including indigenous peoples, as well as the cross-cultural round table on security. Through both of those forums, Madam Chair, we are engaging directly with diaspora communities and indigenous peoples.

The other thing I'll say—and I want to turn it back to Ms. Blaney so she can pick up on the second part of her question if she likes—is that we are working very closely with the service to provide additional support to parliamentarians, as well as their offices, when it comes to foreign interference. You saw in the annual report that was tabled about a month ago, I want to say, that CSIS in the last year has briefed 49 federal parliamentarians. There is more work to be done there, and that is exactly what we will do.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Will it be expanded during elections for candidates as well?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The short answer is yes, and I would say that in addition to briefings we've also got the reporting protocols that we put into place, so I'm very pleased to work with Ms. Blaney and all parliamentarians on this issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

With that, we come to the end of our time together.

We wish you a good day, Mr. Mendicino, as well as the ADM.

I will just ask that if there is information you'd like to share, especially the ADM, please send it to the clerk, and we'll have it circulated in both official languages.

Have a good day. The meeting is suspended while we organize the next panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm calling the meeting back to order.

For our next panel, we have with us Mr. Daniel Jean, former national security and intelligence adviser to the Prime Minister, and Mr. Michel Juneau-Katsuya, former chief of the Asia-Pacific unit, Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

Mr. Juneau-Katsuya, I'm going to pass you the floor, and then I'll go to Mr. Jean after.

Welcome back to PROC, and thank you for responding so quickly.

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya, Former Chief of the Asia-Pacific Unit, Canadian Security Intelligence Service, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

I want to apologize to the interpreters because I don't have a written brief, but my remarks will be relatively short. I'll be commenting on the testimony that you heard this week, particularly that of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the RCMP and CSIS.

In my view, two problems that have been noted are central to the issues before us today. The first is communication issues. These communication problems are both vertical and horizontal. By that, I mean that there are indeed communication problems among agencies, despite the politically correct language we hear from our senior officials. Information isn't circulating as it should horizontally, which is to say, among agencies. If one person fails to provide information, it can't be said that the other person should have received it or didn't do his job. There's also a vertical communication problem in the transmission of information from the agencies to leadership, that is, the Office of the Prime Minister or of a minister concerned. That unfortunately is another problem that I think we have to examine in order to improve the activities and actions that need to be implemented when we face an issue such as the one before us today.

The other problem is a concept that you've already heard of: the intelligence and evidence dilemma. This is a problem that has been around since CSIS was created. CSIS was unfortunately established for the wrong historical reasons. I was there at its inception. We were ordered never to put ourselves in a position in which we would have to testify. Throughout CSIS's history, there are examples in which that undermined national security. They include Air India, the Adil Charkaoui affair, the Ahmed Ressam affair and the Jeffrey Delisle affair. These are examples in which CSIS and the other agencies, particularly the RCMP, failed to communicate with each other as they should have.

It wasn't the RCMP's fault, but rather that of CSIS, which didn't want to testify or provide information. The RCMP commissioner mentioned that. If information comes from CSIS and the RCMP has to testify in court, it will have to identify the origin of that information, as a result of which the CSIS people will have to testify. However, that's what they want to avoid at all costs. And I mean "at all costs", as you'll understand from my examples, such as the Air India one, for example. People have paid the price for that flawed policy.

These are two major and very important factors that must be taken into consideration in analyzing the foreign interference problem we're dealing with.

I will be able to answer in English. I apologize, since I was simply going ad lib here, but please do not hesitate to ask me questions in English.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We welcome either of the official languages. Never hesitate to speak whatever language comes to mind, especially when there are several in the head. We welcome both of the languages here.

French is always welcome, even if the question is asked in English.

Go ahead, Mr. Jean.

[Daniel Jean, Former National Security and Intelligence Advisor to the Prime Minister, As an Individual]

Madam Chair, thank you for your invitation. Thanks as well to the members of the committee.

I have decided not to give an opening statement because, when I appeared before you in mid-April, I made some preliminary remarks and subsequent comments that gave you a clear idea of my views on the foreign interference file. Among other things, my opinion is that this is a much broader issue than the electoral one.

In fact, during my exchange in mid-April, I stressed that, in my view, one of the greater concerns remains surveillance, intimidation and harassment of diaspora. Interestingly, since my appearance, you've seen a lot of people from communities coming and talking about this, and we've also seen information suggesting that it also targeted a member of Parliament, which is a very important thing from a democratic standpoint.

I will leave it there. I will be happy to answer all of your questions.

I think that, as much as we want to go through it, we need to also focus on what needs to be done, strategy and actions. In this context, I hope that, at some point during the questions today, one member of whatever party—I don't mind—is going to ask me to talk about the Australian experience, because I have a lot that I could share on how you move from major concerns to action and strategy.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you to you, and good news: Even if somebody doesn't ask you, if that's information that you think should be relevant to this committee, please just send it to the clerk. We will have it translated in both official languages. I can assure you that members are actually well informed, so any insights you would like to provide we would welcome.

I will go to Mr. Cooper, followed by Mr. Turnbull, Madam Gaudreau, and then Ms. Blaney.

Something that's changed since your last appearance is that when it comes to the earpiece, we would ask you to either keep it in your ear or to the side. When it's near the microphone, it causes a feedback loop, which causes a horrible sound in the ears of interpreters. So keep the earpiece in the ear or to the side—and preferably don't fidget with it near the microphone, please, just in case that happens.

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for returning to committee.

Through you, Madam Chair, my questions will be for Mr. Jean.

Mr. Jean, since you last appeared before this committee, on April 18, you met with the Prime Minister's rapporteur, David Johnston. At pages 22 and 23 of his report, he confirms that you are the author of a 2017 PCO memo to the Prime Minister that had been reported by Global News. I'm going to ask you some questions arising from Mr. Johnston's findings.

Did you prepare the memo at the request of the Prime Minister's chief of staff, Katie Telford?