Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 19th, 2023

[Rob Stewart]

In the context of the 2021 general election, we had an open line of communication to the social media platforms through the Privy Council Office. There were conversations prior to and probably during the election about the need to maintain awareness and take action where abuse of their systems was detected.

The RRM was our eyes and ears to look at social media and to see whether there were trends in social media that looked like they were promoting misinformation or disinformation. That would have been a tool to use had we come to that conclusion.

We did see some things, although we were not able to determine their source in terms of who was doing it.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I think that's going to be the hardest part of the next few years. It's figuring out how to source that information.

I understand—and please correct me if I'm wrong—that RRM Canada works with academia and civil society to conduct research. I'm wondering if you could share any information about what those partnerships might look like and what the research is telling us.

[Rob Stewart]

I'm sorry. No.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

You have nothing.

[Rob Stewart]

That would be a question for Ms. Denham.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That's fair enough.

This is my next question for you. I noticed that in your testimony you talked about the fact that information is not emailed, and that it's downloaded, I think you said, printed out and then provided to the people who are supposed to have it.

Can you talk about, first of all, why it's not emailed? Second of all, it's downloaded from where?

[Rob Stewart]

We, as all countries do, have systems that are secure. The information travels over secured communications technology. The end points for those systems are themselves in secure spaces. I guess when I hear the word “email”, I think of the conventional version of email. There is mail on those systems, but the mail is contained within the systems.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Here is what we are going to ask of you, Deputy. We'd like to be able to vote and then return. The motion had asked for an hour of your time. I would like to be able to complete 60 minutes with you.

When we return from the vote and once all the members are in the room—so please try to come back as quickly as possible, members—we will then proceed to that second round, and then, hopefully, we can send you on your way. Is that okay?

[Rob Stewart]

That's fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you so much.

Have a good vote, everyone. We'll see you back in this room.

Thank you. The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We're going to return to our meeting.

Thank you, Deputy Minister Stewart, for staying with us.

We're into our second round.

We now go to Mr. Berthold for five minutes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Stewart, thank you for being here and answering our questions. I need some things cleared up, because, since we began our study on foreign interference, the answers we've gotten from a number of senior officials have surprised me. Everyone here recognizes that Parliament is the heart of our democracy. Everyone here also recognizes that elected representatives are focused on other things at election time, so they rely entirely on senior people in the federal public service to ensure the integrity of our elections, from the Commissioner of Canada Elections and the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada to the various groups that are put in place.

What really surprised me was what you said about the river of intelligence on foreign interference and national security matters. You used it to justify the fact that no one noticed anything when a foreign communist regime targeted elected representatives during an election campaign. No one wants to take responsibility for not doing their job.

This is what the director of CSIS had to say regarding intelligence that Michael Chong and three other MPs, one with family in China, were targeted: As I mentioned a little earlier, CSIS and I conveyed the information to the Department of Public Safety [you were the deputy minister at the time] along with the very specific directive to forward it to the minister. I don't doubt that the minister didn't receive it. His comment was very clear. However, it's important for the committee to understand that we shared the intelligence and the briefing note.

You said that there was a river of intelligence and that the briefing note didn't make its way to the minister. The CSIS official told us the agency sends only zero to three of these briefing notes a week. CSIS sorts through the river of information and goes to the trouble of identifying zero to three important notes to be sent to the department. How is it possible that you didn't see this one and didn't forward it to the minister?

[Rob Stewart]

Mr. Berthold, I wouldn't want to be seen as a deputy minister who doesn't take their responsibilities seriously or doesn't do their best every day.

Under the system in place at the time, I wasn't really involved in briefings to the minister. The director was the one who briefed the minister. It was up to them to decide what the issues and concerns were. I was there at the time, but I wasn't responsible for that.

The first question I answered was about the situation that occurred in the spring or summer of 2021. I think we identified the problems with the system that the agencies used to share information.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

If I understand correctly, it's up to the minister to decide which briefings he wants and which he doesn't.

[Rob Stewart]

Exactly.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Stewart.

Madam Chair, I propose the committee resume consideration of Mr. Cooper's motion, since we didn't finish discussing it at our last meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We're just calling the question on whether we want to switch to the other motion or maintain....

The clerk will call the question.

[An hon. member]

Are we debating this?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We're calling the question. If you want to do it, say yes. If you don't want to do it, say no.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'm just confused because we have a witness here.

(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Cooper, you have a point of order.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, what we have is the cover-up coalition at work yet again seeking to go behind closed doors rather than to deal with this matter—

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Point of order.