Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 24th, 2023

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I stand corrected and I congratulate you.

Now, are we equipped to deal with deepfakes?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I would suggest to you we are subject to misinformation, disinformation, illicit cyber-activity. There are constant attacks on Canadian systems, Canadian values, Canadians.

We need to continually get better at this. We see these attacks. Some of them are denial of services against government institutions. There are attacks on media. There are attacks on our academic institutions, on critical infrastructure in this country. I think we work very robustly. I think in many areas of Canada our response is quite appropriate and adequate. The bad guys are innovating constantly, which means we have to innovate constantly as well in order to be ready to respond.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I quite agree with you, it is evolving rapidly.

Indeed, you talked about measures in relation to artificial intelligence. Could you identify some of the measures that have been put in place since last spring?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Just to be clear, do you mean work that we have been doing?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'm referring to measures to counter foreign interference.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Of course, there are a number of things. I will tell you that one of the areas I'm responsible for is the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security , which is run by the Communications Securities Establishment. I was over to see them yesterday. They're doing some really outstanding work in order to protect Canadian interests and to thwart the constant attacks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

There's also legislation before Parliament we can talk about another time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We look forward to it.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

That's a start. Perhaps the minister can table the measures—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Madam Gaudreau would like your team and you to provide us a list of the measures that we're taking, and we would welcome that within our binder at a time convenient.

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, you have two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Minister, since you are now Minister of Defence, could you share with us what you carried from this experience to this new role that you play? What steps have you taken to ensure that intelligence from DND is properly disseminated to Global Affairs Canada?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Actually, the relationship is between not just DND and Global Affairs, but includes, obviously, Public Safety. There are a number of different areas of government involved. I might even suggest there are whole-of-government implications for the work they're doing.

I'm briefed, as I've already mentioned to you, quite robustly and vigorously by our intelligence people, by the chief of the defence staff and by the chief of the Communications Security Establishment. We look through all those briefings with a lens about what everyone else needs to know and what we can make public in order to protect Canadians.

For example, just on the weekend, I had asked for a very robust analysis of some information. I asked CFINTCOM, the Canadian Forces Intelligence Command, to do an analysis and to produce a public-facing document so we could share information with Canadians that, frankly, Canadians needed to know, and they needed to know from a credible source. They needed to know from a trusted source. I asked them to produce that information. I released that publicly, or had them release it. I commented on it, but they released it, because I wanted that information to be made available to Canadians and to every department of government so that all of us could have the same basis of information from which decisions can be drawn.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Those are all my questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I know people don't say it often, but you're wonderful, Madam Blaney. Thank you so much for that.

We will now head to Mr. Cooper, followed by Mr. Gerretsen, before we let the minister go on his way.

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, did your chief of staff, Zita Astravas, read the issues management note, which was also sent to her?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No. My understanding is no. I wouldn't testify for her, but I asked, and she said no.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much.

Minister, through you, Madam Chair, you have had a history, over the last two meetings you've appeared before this committee, of providing inaccurate testimony.

On June 1, you said that the issues management note was withheld from you as part of an operational decision by CSIS, which you now concede is not the case but that there was an intent that you see that issues management note. You said, in answer to a question that I posed to you, that the issues management note had not been sent to you, even though I have a redacted copy of the issues management note that clearly indicates it was sent to you. The fact that you didn't read it, the fact that it went into a big black hole, is an entirely different matter, Minister.

Minister, you seem to make a big deal about accessing a secure terminal. You cited that this would have been transmitted to a secure terminal in the deputy minister of public safety's office.

Can you confirm that your office and the deputy minister's office at which this secure terminal is located are on the 19th floor of 269 Laurier?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I don't know where the secure terminal is.

Mr. Cooper, if I wrote you a letter and wrote your name on the letter and then put it back in my briefcase and never told you the letter existed and never showed it to you and didn't give you access to my briefcase, I think we could assume that you didn't know that I had written you the letter.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, do you mean to tell me that you don't know where the secure terminal is on the same floor as your office, in the deputy minister's office?

Is that an answer that lends itself to confidence on the part of Canadians that you had a grip on fulfilling your responsibilities in receiving information, in this case, on a matter of high importance involving a member of Parliament who was being targeted by Beijing? Really, Minister?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, really, Mr. Cooper.

Mr. Cooper, that terminal is on the other side of the building. I do not have access to it. I do not have any access to it, and I don't know precisely where it's located because, frankly, if I knew where it was located, I might have been given access to it.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, I'm glad you've now discovered where it is.

Minister, had you not thought to go down the hall? You talk about this expectation that led to this issues management note's going into a big black hole. Had you directed your officials to bring to your attention issues management notes on matters of high importance that were addressed to you? Did you ever instruct them to bring those memos to your attention? Do you have to be told to read documents that are sent to your attention? Do you have to be told by officials before you bother to do so?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Cooper, just to be really clear, I have to be advised that there is a memo that needs to be read. In this case, I was not.

The director did not advise me. I've been in the job for two years, and in every other circumstance, the director would notify my office that he had top secret information that he needed to convey to me. He would convene a meeting that I would attend in a secure facility, and that information would be shared. That did not happen in this case.

There were a few other occasions—twice, by the way, in that month—where I was actually asked to go down to the Toronto office.

Again, that information was not shared. I have no way of asking or demanding to see a note that I don't know exists.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, do your staff have to tell you to read your emails? Do your staff have to tell you to check your text messages? It says right here that it was sent to you.

Minister, do you accept—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Cooper, you're confused—