Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2023

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

I apologize for interrupting, Mr. Fergus, but this is important. If you have that grid, would you please forward it to the committee so we can add it to the file? If it isn't complete, would you at least send us what you have so we can analyze your grid in the context of the report?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

It would be a pleasure, but I must warn you that it's only a draft.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Very well. Thank you.

Mrs. DeBellefeuille, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Fergus, thank you for being here this morning. You recognized my forthright approach at a meeting of the Board of Internal Economy last week. As I'm sure you will understand, I won't make any exceptions this morning: I'll be frank and sincere.

We had a discussion after you had just been elected, and I told you that you were being closely watched. It's a major challenge to switch from one's seat as an MP, quite a partisan role, to the role of Speaker. I told you that you were being watched and that I hoped you would convince me of the quality of your judgment and of your impartiality because, to my mind, those are the two major qualities that a Speaker must absolutely have. I'm sorry to say this to my Liberal colleagues, but you either have judgment or you don't. It's not something you learn.

You no doubt heard the testimony of Mr. Janse, who said several times, in English and in French, that you didn't consult your right-hand man, the clerk, before making the video. You did it on your own, with your office staff. You recorded a video using House resources, which is prohibited under the Standing Orders. You must be beyond reproach, Mr. Speaker. You recorded that video in your Speaker's robes, in the Speaker's office, and presented yourself as the Speaker of the House of Commons.

You also slighted my leader, the leader of the Bloc Québécois, by suggesting that one of his questions was illegitimate. You apologized personally, but not in the House. You blamed the incident on the interpretation.

Then you went to Washington. I don't understand that. You went to Washington while the House was sitting, and your situation created a crisis of trust in Parliament. To my mind, that was a second display of poor judgment. It seems to me that, when you know you've made a mistake, you should do what you're supposed to do. You need to listen to and see what's going on in the House, which withdrew its trust in you by means of a motion.

In addition, you referred to your partisan past while you were in Washington. I understand you because that's who you are: you're a campaigner and a partisan. However, you were unable to detach yourself from your past and put on your new Speaker's robes. It's difficult. I knew it would be a challenge for you.

You haven't been Speaker for very long, and you didn't consult the clerk. Did you at least consult your chief of staff or your entourage to see whether it was a good idea to do all that in your Speaker's robes, in the Speaker's office while presenting yourself as the Speaker? But it was a personal video intended for a friend. Did you ask your chief of staff for advice?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Mrs. DeBellefeuille. I remember our discussion very clearly.

As I explained in response to one of your colleagues here, the moment when I really understood the situation was when I talked about my past. I realized that I might be giving the impression that I was validating that political point of view. That's when I learned my lesson.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

You're telling me about Washington, but I'm talking about your video. I'm trying to imagine you in that situation. Did your chief of staff film you with his camera?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

No, it wasn't my chief of staff; it was my assistant at my Parliament Hill office. As I explained, it wasn't his fault, but rather mine. I admit it entirely. It was a lack of judgment on my part. That's why I apologized to you. It's a hard lesson to learn and it's a situation that will not occur again.

To give you a little more context, as I said, I recorded the video believing that it was a private video that wasn't intended to—

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Mr. Fergus, I'm interrupting you because I don't have enough time, and I have a lot to tell you. I don't mean to be impolite.

I understand your intention, but that's where you lacked judgment. How can you imagine that you can shoot a video, in the office of the Speaker of the House, dressed in the Speaker's robes, for a friend who's leaving political life?

If I had been your chief of staff, I would've told you that you couldn't do it, that you would be at risk if the video turned up somewhere else and that the Speaker must be impartial and unassailable. So I think your entourage lacked judgment. You had the video shot by your Hill assistant. You didn't consult Mr. Janse. You didn't consult your chief of staff.

So you acted alone. To my mind, that shows a lack of judgment. You tell me it won't happen again, but I'm worried all the same because you will have to judge more complicated situations than that. I would be very concerned because this one was so easy to judge.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you for that observation.

That's why I think it's important to have procedures and a protocol in place to assess that kind of request. It's one way to be able to take a step back and get some perspective rather than act too hastily.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Julian, six minutes go to you.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I feel saddened. That week we had a speakership crisis. It was tough for everyone, including all Canadians. Now I sense that we're in the midst of another speakership crisis. This is an incident that called for some serious thinking that we should all do. The Speaker's role is so important.

I'm saddened that we're in this situation. I'm saddened that the House felt compelled to refer.... They referred this to the PROC committee unanimously, because of what they consider to be a serious error.

I've been listening very carefully to your testimony, Mr. Fergus. I want to know when you realized this was a serious error. When did you know that it was wrong to have done that video?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

The very moment it was reported to me that it had been aired publicly, all of a sudden, Mr. Julian, it became very clear that this was just wrong.

That wasn't the intention. It shouldn't have.... Not only was it not the intention, but as I said in my testimony and as I say to you again, it should never have been taped in the first place. It became very clear in hindsight how wrong that was.

That's the reason why I apologize to you and to all members and I'm apologizing to all Canadians.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

When you were doing the video in your robes, in the House and in your Speaker's chambers, what was going through your mind?

I say this with respect. I know that, as a member of Parliament, I can't film partisan videos in my constituency office. In my office on the Hill, we take careful attention to do that. The precedent is vast. We all know it's wrong. I don't understand what was going through your mind as you were taping that.

Did you consult with your chief of staff at any point to say, “Do you think this is a good idea?”

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Through you, Madam Chair, to Mr. Julian, that was the problem with it. It was a very quick. It was, “Let's just quickly get this done.”

It was not a partisan video. It was a very personal video. I did talk about my past, but it wasn't one where I was pronouncing about the present or making a declaration on that front. It was a mistake. I shouldn't have done it—period—but when I was making it, it was in the moment. It was between two meetings. We were in a rush, and I just did it in one take and moved on to my next meeting. I've been replaying this moment in my mind over and over again, and I wish I had just taken a moment to think about it.

Sometimes in politics—and I think we all do this, but it's glaring when it happens to you, and it's as embarrassing as all out—when you do these things, you're not thinking. We move from pillar to post so quickly. We go from one event to another, and we don't take the time sometimes to take a step back to think about it.

That's why a protocol is being put in place to make sure that all communications will be going through a process that will use the administration of the House, especially the Clerk, to determine whether something is appropriate or not.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I'm troubled by something else as well. In your apology to the House on Monday, December 4, you said video “was played at a convention for a party that I am not a member of, in a province where I do not live in and where I have been unable to vote for nearly three decades”.

However, on the Saturday 48 hours before, The Globe and Mail quoted you as saying, in terms of Mr. Fraser, “He's demonstrated so much calm, and conviction and resolve and determination, and he's held it all together at a very challenging time in the history of our party”.

You referred to “our party” in The Globe and Mail on Saturday. You said on Monday that it's “a party that I am not a member of, in a province where I do not live in and where I have been unable to vote for nearly three decades”. Do you see the contradiction between those two statements?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I do. If you had asked me and I hadn't taken a look at the transcript of the video, I certainly wouldn't have used that word, “our” party. What I was referring to, in terms of his past and my past and where it really connected, was 30 years ago.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

There's another contradiction. I understand that they were very intense weeks. You had just been elected Speaker of the House of Commons; it was a period of intense adjustment.

However, according to Mr. Janse's testimony, a few days after your election, you began to plan a trip to Washington while Parliament was sitting. There again, I see a contradiction. The intensity of that transition period is normal. And yet, at the same time, you were planning a trip to Washington while Parliament was in session. Can you explain that contradiction?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Yes.

I had previously made a personal commitment as an MP to attend that event and therefore explained to the team that I wouldn't be available during that period. When I approached the occupants of the chair to have someone replace me—I don't know who suggested it first—I was told that we could take advantage of my presence there to coordinate meetings for the purpose of conducting parliamentary diplomacy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We'll now go into our second round. It will be Mr. Cooper, Mr. Gerretsen, Madame DeBellefeuille and then Mr. Julian.

Through the chair, Mr. Cooper, you have five minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Fergus, you stated that you realized that it was a mistake when it had been aired publicly, and that if only you had a moment to reflect on it, you wouldn't have done that. You stated that as though the video was done in isolation, except it wasn't done in isolation. On the evening of December 1, the day before the Liberal leadership announcement, an interview in The Globe and Mail, written by Laura Stone, was published in which you praised Mr. Fraser and offered partisan comments.

Did you think that interview was going to be in private?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

No, not at all.

Through you, Madam Chair, I was being interviewed, and again, I made it clear during that interview that I wasn't talking about his current place. I was talking about.... As a matter of fact, if you can get the transcripts of it from Ms. Stone, I said very clearly that I couldn't talk about political current affairs, but I could certainly talk about the man that I knew.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You made partisan comments, including referring to the Liberal Party as “our party”. Those were your words. You thought it was appropriate to take an interview with Laura Stone, in your capacity as Speaker of the House, to speak about a sitting MPP who was the leader of the Ontario Liberal Party on the eve of the convention. You thought that was appropriate as the Speaker of the House of Commons.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Through you, Madam Chair, to Mr. Cooper, I had an interview with Ms. Stone to talk about the person I knew, the person whom I'd had an interaction with. I made it very clear during the interview that it was not to talk about current politics. I couldn't do that as Speaker.