Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

I think it's a rhetorical question. Give a really short answer.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

It's not hard to stop doing partisan activities. This certainly wasn't a partisan activity. I also mentioned that the intention was not for it to be at a partisan activity. It was to be a goodbye for a long-time friend.

That being said, Madam Chair, that is the reason why protocols are going to be put in place. All communications coming out of my office will be going through this process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Noormohamed.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for being here today.

Mr. Scheer is not here, regrettably, but I was struck by his comments about partisan actions by Speakers.

I recall that Mr. Scheer, just prior to becoming Speaker, had money from his EDA transferred under his watch to engage in questionable robocalls. Then when he became Speaker, he refused to recuse himself and did not let the House know that he had been involved in this. I am sure that the response that Liberal members of Parliament at that time gave him, which was the benefit of the doubt.... I am sure that our Conservative colleagues will extend the same courtesy to you for something that is, I would argue, far less egregious.

I note that, after he became Speaker, he continued to serve on the board of his EDA.

We all make mistakes in life. Some people are generous of spirit, and they are able to move on in the interest of all Canadians. I'm sure the Conservatives will do the same.

I want to talk a little bit about the question that was asked of you earlier about your relationship with Mr. Fraser. Mr. Gerretsen spent a little bit of time on this. Did you see this as a partisan thing, or did you see this as doing something for someone that you cared about as a human being?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you for the question.

Through you, Madam Chair, it is clearly the latter. However, in retrospect, it comes to me in looking at this, that I can see how talking about and revisiting my past, and talking about a partisan activity in my past, could be seen by members who do not share that same past as a way of making comments about it today. That is why I am truly sorry that this video was recorded.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

You've said you're sorry many times. I think many of us will accept that apology. I want to know this: If Mr. Fraser had been a Conservative and he had been your role model or someone you had a deep relationship with, would you have been as comfortable recording such a message?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I would have.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

What if you had been a New Democrat?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Absolutely.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

What if you had been a member of the Bloc?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Absolutely.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

For you, this was not about being partisan.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

No. It was about the relationship. I have close personal friends.... I would even say probably all of us do. They are close, dear personal friends who have a wide swath of political allegiances. I also have friends who have no political allegiance whatsoever.

It was done under that understanding. That being said, the Speaker has to be held to a higher standard, and I recognize that. I'm in the hands of members, but I hope they would understand that it was not an error of intention. It is one, however, that I will certainly make sure we put processes in place to ensure it doesn't happen again.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

I want to read from a statement made by Mr. Scheer when he was Speaker. He said, “Another [one] of our time-honoured traditions is that of respect for the office of Speaker.” He goes on to say, “O'Brien and Bosc, at page 313, states that: 'Reflections on the character or actions of the Speaker—an allegation of bias, for example—could be taken by the House as breeches of privilege and punished accordingly.'”

I start with that because I reflect on something that was said to me when I was elected to this office, and it is that people of colour are treated sometimes differently when you get to this place. It's an uncomfortable thing for us to talk about, but it's an important thing for us to talk about because we are, for better or for worse, role models for others. We are, for better or for worse, sometimes the front line for things that happen outside of this place. This place is no different, sadly, and sometimes things in this place, when it comes to matters of diversity, are worse.

My question to you, in the context of that statement by Mr. Scheer and the quote from page 313 is this: Do you think you are, or have been, treated differently as somebody who is a person of colour in the process of becoming Speaker and since you have become Speaker?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Through the Chair to the member, that is not something I am able to pronounce on.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

That says a lot about you and your character as a person. I thank you for that answer, because I think it's important for us to hope that we are treated fairly and reasonably, regardless of how we got here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm sorry, but the beep is going to go off in three seconds.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I appreciate your kindness for that understanding.

Ms. DeBellefeuille, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Fergus, this meeting is not easy for you. Today, you have apologized officially for poor judgment. You have done that in front of us and the people watching us, and the journalists, and it is not easy to say that one has had poor judgment.

You know that I speak plainly; you have told me so in the past. I am therefore going to tell you sincerely that I will always doubt you, because the mistake you made is not a learning error, it is an error of judgment.

It is all very well for you to put whatever manual you want in place. It may help you make fewer mistakes. But it tells me a lot about your ability to be a Speaker who stays above the fray and to regain the confidence of the House. That has nothing to do with you personally. You are a good person; I am simply saying that you may not be in the right place.

What is happening right now is that the seriousness of your mistake is undermining the confidence of the 32 Bloc Québécois MPs. Do you remember what I said to you personally, when you were nominated? I told you that you were under tight surveillance, because I had doubts about your election. My doubts have been confirmed. I know you have good intentions, but every time you do something or make a decision, I am going to doubt you. I will be wondering whether you are talking to the government.

The Bloc Québécois wants the Speaker to be the Speaker for all members. It does not want the Speaker to be the Speaker for the government. It wants to be sure that you are able to be an arbitrator and not to favour any party in the House.

Today, I am sad to tell you that unfortunately the Bloc Québécois will never regain its confidence in you. That is sad to say, but it is the truth. I strongly urge you to think about what I am telling you, because when you return to the House, it will not be easy for you to know that a large number of members have lost confidence in you, in a situation in which the government is in the minority and the atmosphere is not always easy.

On that note, I will conclude. I hope that you will make the right decisions when the results that come out of the Committee's recommendations are known.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Julian, the floor is yours.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank you, Mr. Fergus, for coming to committee.

I'm satisfied with some of your answers. I will say, quite frankly, that I'm not satisfied with other answers.

What I have clearly understood from your testimony is that you understand this committee has to go through a process that, ultimately, could be decided by the House of Commons, and that you are ready to accept the conclusions of the committee, whether we're talking about penalties or potentially asking for your resignation. You are prepared to heed the results of this committee's inquiry.

Am I right?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Through you, Madam Chair, I'm prepared to heed the decision of the House, which I'm assuming would concur with the decision of the committee.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That is important.

I will ask you this: I only have about a minute left and there are a number of documents that I think would be very useful to this committee. We've asked Mr. Janse, as well, to provide them. The reality is that we need to receive all of it today, because the timelines in the House order, as you know, are very short. We have to report back by Thursday, which means we have to draft this report and conclude by tomorrow. I would ask that those documents and those questions that remain unanswered.... If you can endeavour to do that in the coming hours, it would be very helpful.

I think it is fair to say that we all feel, keenly, the convulsions we went through in October. It was profoundly difficult for Canadians. I know this committee will reflect properly on this, even if we have a very short time frame to do this.

I appreciate that you will be providing those documents in the coming hours.

Thank you.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

If there are any further questions where you don't feel satisfied, I'd be happy to receive them and try to answer them in a way that will satisfy your questions. I'm here to answer all questions and to provide all members with the information that they require.