Evidence of meeting #23 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was registry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you.
You'll be aware of recent legislation that passed in both Houses in terms of removing the first-generation limit for Canadian citizenship for Canadians living abroad. That expands the number of people around the world who are eligible for Canadian citizenship.
I'm curious. You talked a bit in your opening comments about interacting with Canadians and communities. How do you plan on engaging with Canadian citizens abroad if you're confirmed in this role?
Nominee for the position of Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, As an Individual
I think that would be an area where I would look to perhaps Global Affairs for expertise on how to speak to Canadians abroad. Certainly, an online presence is a very good way to provide information that can be accessible from anywhere in the world. I think designing how that information is made available will be important.
There are community groups that represent Canadians who are abroad or other individuals who are abroad. I think working through the diplomatic service would be another way to make sure that information is available.
Conservative
Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
When we asked some folks from Global Affairs—the Prime Minister's former national security adviser, now ambassador to France, and a few others—they were not sure exactly how their efforts in terms of the Global Affairs response to foreign interference were going to interact with Canadians living abroad, given these legislative changes.
I'm a bit concerned that the legislation is passed and is in effect and the Global Affairs team doesn't seem to have any idea on how it is going to respond to that increased number of citizens. I would encourage you to flesh out a bit more, if you could, the process as to what interactions your office is going to have with Canadians abroad. I think that's a bit of a concern for a lot of people.
Also, I wonder about the registry itself and those who should be on it. It's one thing to collect that information from people within Canada who are operating that way, but how do you see your office interacting with those folks who are operating in other countries to Canadian diaspora communities?
Nominee for the position of Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, As an Individual
The law of course applies to anyone, regardless of whether they're in Canada or outside Canada, so identifying those individuals and communicating with them is going to be critically important. I think there are specific instances where an individual or an entity meets the criteria to register, and that's one avenue. There would be, I think, easier ways to communicate with them.
There could obviously be covert activity and I would receive information through partnerships with law enforcement, CSIS or other agencies. We would work to try to establish contact and require registration.
In general, it's making sure that information about the register and the requirements to register, clarity on definitions and information bulletins are available. Online availability, obviously, is the best means to have that presence available to those who are not in Canada or for people across Canada. We have such a large and diverse country. Having that available, and having multilingual access, is going to be important.
Conservative
Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you.
I'm curious. You mentioned—I think in a response to another question—detecting interactions between actors and Canadians or elected officials, including financial interactions. Did I hear you correctly?
Nominee for the position of Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, As an Individual
That's really just in relation to the criteria that are necessary for someone to register. One of the criteria is that there's a passing or dissemination of funds or something of value. I would look forward to making sure that I would have ways to understand whether that was taking place.
Conservative
Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
How would you envision that looking, for Canadians living abroad, detecting financials or the items of value interacting between a foreign actor and a Canadian citizen living in another country?
Nominee for the position of Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, As an Individual
It would be very challenging, obviously. I would have to rely on other agencies to provide support in that area.
The focus of the transparency commissioner obviously is on providing that transparency to Canadians through the register, whereas there are other federal agencies that have direct responsibility for intelligence-gathering and those sorts of things.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
Thank you so much.
We'll turn to Mr. Greaves for six minutes, please.
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, Mr. Boegman. Thank you for being here.
As a fellow British Columbian and as the MP for Victoria, I'd also like to take the opportunity to thank you for your work in our home province and for your service, most recently, in the 2024 provincial election.
I think your experience in British Columbia will serve you in good stead in this role federally, given that many of the issues that you will have dealt with in that capacity will be mirrored at the federal level as well. One of the issues that we know is of particular significance at the moment, perhaps one of the greatest challenges in our politics and to our electoral system, has to do with misinformation and disinformation deliberately spread by bad actors—some of them located outside our borders—who seek to confuse and ultimately misinform Canadians for their own ends.
Could you please speak to how you've addressed online disinformation and misinformation in your previous role in British Columbia, and how you will tackle it should you be appointed as commissioner?
Nominee for the position of Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, As an Individual
Certainly.
When I first was appointed as chief electoral officer, I remember having lunch with the privacy commissioner of B.C. He pointed me to a report that a British parliamentary committee had tabled on the issue of misinformation and disinformation. En route to a meeting in Newfoundland, I read that tome cover to cover. That was my introduction to the threat, what had been going on and some possible solutions. I used that. I made it required reading for my management team.
That resulted in a report that I tabled with our legislators addressing the dangers of misinformation and disinformation in the election space. I was fortunate to be able to work with legislators in B.C. They changed the law to have specific prohibitions about certain forms of misinformation and disinformation, some that mirror what's currently in the Canada Elections Act. That was unique in British Columbia. It had not been done before. We were able to implement that in the last election.
I think there was a lot of knowledge about these new provisions. I think there was a deterrent effect from the knowledge of that, because there weren't many instances where we needed to apply that law, in that case. I think it's resulted in a system that is much more robust, a system that much more reflects the modern environment and what some of the evolving risks to elections and to our democracy have been.
Certainly, that is how I approach that in this case.
In the role as commissioner, should I be confirmed in this role, I need to understand or assess what that risk is and what could take place with what the specific requirements of the law are for the register. The Canadian register, as I understand it, is not one like the U.S. FARA law, which can focus on public opinion activities to influence public opinion. It's a narrower definition in the current legislation. You need to be able to define and understand whether some activities are taking place. It may meet a broader definition of disinformation, but it may not meet the requirements of the act and require legislation if it's not being aimed at a political or governmental process.
Really understanding that, being able to define that, being able to communicate what those requirements are and then moving forward....
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
Thank you, Mr. Boegman.
Mr. Chair, I'll be sharing the rest of my time with my colleague, Mr. Sari.
Liberal
Abdelhaq Sari Liberal Bourassa, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Boegman, thank you as well for being with us today.
Traditionally, there was much more talk about foreign interference involving funding and disinformation, generally sent through the media. However, we're now entering a new, much more digital era and, I'd say, much more connected to generative AI, etc., or even what’s called super AI.
This system can now truly focus on what's called the creation of cognitive intelligence in general and focus on the creation of knowledge that can be sent to the public. This really results in political narratives. In your opinion, is this something that could pose a risk, given that it can produce massive amounts of automated content that could influence electoral decisions?
Nominee for the position of Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, As an Individual
I think so, yes.
AI is a somewhat new thing in this environment. In the United States and other countries, we’ve seen that AI is used by various actors. In this case, I think the first thing to do in combatting the harmful consequences of this activity is to be transparent.
In ads or in posts on social media, for example, there could be a message at the bottom of a post stating that the ad was generated by AI. There should be such a message, so it's clear to Canadians and so the person who sees the post knows that it's not real.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
We're going to have a round of two minutes each, based on a request from the Conservatives. I will again be firm on the two minutes.
We'll go to Mr. Kram.
Conservative
Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
One of the most common criticisms of the old long-gun registry was that honest, law-abiding Canadians would proactively go out and register their firearms, but hardened criminals who never had any intention of abiding by the law anyway would not go and register their firearms. We all know how that worked out. I'm a bit concerned that we're going down the same pathway with the foreign interference registry.
Mr. Boegman, how would you ensure that this foreign interference registry was effective and wouldn't just end up inconveniencing people who are following the law anyway?
Nominee for the position of Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, As an Individual
Again, I have not been part of the process of getting to this point other than having my name put forward. Obviously, it's an area that I'm tremendously interested in; I think there's a real need for it, because the potential negative impact on our democracy is significant.
One of the key parts of the law and the regulations underneath is a wide range of administrative monetary penalties that can be applied. From my understanding, the top end of that is far greater than even what's in the U.S. FARA law, and that allows for a very robust response when you identify these instances where there have been contraventions of the requirements, such as people not registering or not updating when they need to and when these activities are taking place. That will actually form a strong deterrent against these types of covert activities taking place.
Obviously, it's not going to prevent it. I'm not naive. Interference activities have been ongoing since governments have been around. I read once that there was French interference in the U.S. presidential election of 1796 because they wanted Mr. Jefferson, I believe, to be elected president. There were all kinds of things happening there.
By being clear about what the requirements are for registration and when activities meet those requirements, and by having a way to register that doesn't have a heavy administrative burden will be important for making sure it's easy for those who need to register to do so. Having the deterrent will mean that people who are doing these activities covertly will think twice about doing them.
Liberal
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Boegman.
In your earlier answer, you referred to the federal statutory definition of misinformation and disinformation. You suggested that it was a narrower definition than the one used in some of our peer countries. I wonder if you could elaborate on that in terms of whether you feel that the way in which misinformation is currently defined is overly narrow and therefore potentially misses other relevant activity that seeks to interfere in our electoral processes, and whether you as commissioner would be willing to consider requesting that government expand the definition to capture the appropriate scope, in your view.
Nominee for the position of Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, As an Individual
I think I was using that as an example and not specifically meaning the definitions of disinformation and misinformation. It was more what the requirements are for registration in the Canadian foreign influence transparency registry and what I have seen in some of the other countries that have these registries. For example, in the U.S. the FARA law really addresses any activity that aims to change public opinion, whereas in our own law, it has to be aimed at political and governmental processes. There could be other activity that could be happening that is not specifically focusing on those processes. In that case, it wouldn't require registration.
I've read a lot of different debate on either side as to whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. As I said before, I think the fact that the requirements are set in regulations is very good, because it allows future flexibility. I'm also cognizant, as a bit of a realist, that having a narrower definition will make it easier to set up the office, get it up and running and avoid the risk of just being overwhelmed by everything from too much input coming in.
Should I be appointed to this role, I'll be looking at how the model works and obviously at whether I see any potential gaps in it. I would have the ability under the law, should I be appointed commissioner, to issue not only an annual report but also special reports on subjects under that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
Thank you so much, Mr. Boegman. We do like a thorough answer here at PROC.
We do have to move on to Madame Normandin.
Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for two minutes.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Boegman, for the entries in the registry, we can expect that some people will do it naturally, but there are complex situations. We saw that in the case of Mr. Nijjar's assassination, for example, there were several entities and representatives, and money was moving from one country to another. It will require the co-operation of CSIS.
How will you ensure that files don't fall through the cracks? With the creation of a new entity, it will be easy to say that it's someone else's fault. How will you ensure that you work proactively and that someone won't say it wasn't in my department?