Human Resources Committee on Oct. 17th, 2006

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Just to follow up on that, would anybody like to comment on the connection between the cuts to the most vulnerable, plus students, plus workers, plus research, etc., and the statement in the last budget about the larger allocation for corrections for, and I quote, the anticipated “increase in inmates”?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I would just warn whoever answers the question that you have about ten seconds.

Very quickly, Mr. Wyatt.

[Bob Wyatt]

Mr. Chairman, in a speech I made some time ago in connection with a youth program that was being funded by the federal government, I asked what questions were being raised by the previous administration. You can pay for the program or you can pay for the jail cell. You're going to pay for one of the two.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Wyatt.

We're going to move down to the second questioner, for five minutes.

Mr. Lessard, I believe you're going to start with a very short question before you pass it on to Madame Bonsant.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

We’ll share whatever time is allotted.

A well-respected and widely-read Quebec editorial writer was asking, as did earlier my colleague, what lied behind this operation. He says he has the impression that these cuts were decided by two guys “off on a bender who took a turn to the right”. This idea has spread. People are still wondering what this operation is all about.

As for those of you who are close to citizens who are committed to helping others, is this an ideological operation that aims to change the social net that has been built with sweat and tears over the years?

[Barb Byers]

I think this is not just an attempt; this is an attack on that social fabric. If you look at it, the government obviously is looking for dollars to spend on its war effort, when quite clearly Canadians are saying we shouldn't be there. We want to support our troops by bringing them home alive.

This is a situation where it is an attack on the social fabric that we've built up. That's why people at this end of the table feel so passionately about what's happening. It's not about our individual programs. It's about the lives of the Canadians we come in touch with every day and the difference it's going to make to them on the ground.

So it is an attack on our social fabric. It is an attack on our progress as a country.

[Bob Wyatt]

Mr. Chairman, perhaps I can add to that, just very briefly.

I think it's very dangerous for any of us to impute motives, particularly to impute what many Canadians would say are bad or evil motives for decisions. I would not want to be a member of the cabinet that has to make decisions about what gets cut and what doesn't get cut. I would like to think that I would take the time to talk to people and find out about things, to think through the consequences of those decisions, rather than to simply make an announcement that takes everybody by surprise.

Frankly, we in the voluntary sector are all spending a great deal of time in a crisis mentality instead of serving the Canadians we're supposed to serve. That's to no one's advantage.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Madame Bonsant, two minutes.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I agree with Mrs. Byers.

I’m happy to see you here. You’re very sharp. It’s good to see that you know what’s going on in the real world.

The army is very expensive. Because of its way of thinking, the present government has cut long term funding for education; however, the government is willing to build jails and to incarcerate 12 year old children.

Since these cuts have been made, how do your volunteers feel? These people don’t cost much, in fact, they’re free. Do you think they’re completely discouraged? Do you think you’ll lose the support of very important people who might stop helping these groups?

[Sharon Manson Singer]

If I might just intervene, I'd like to correct the notion that volunteers are free, because they are not. Volunteers are a wonderful addition to Canada, and they make a great deal of difference in every single community, but they need support as well. The infrastructure of the Canada voluntary initiative helped to provide that infrastructure. The 12 million volunteers we have were supported in communities to provide the kinds of services necessary.

I just don't want us to think for a moment that volunteers are free. They need support. They need nurturing. They need training. They need supervision. They need assistance in order to give as richly as they do in our country.

[Barb Byers]

I would say that this is what will end up happening. Sometimes when people get hit with a cut, yes, there is discouragement. But people also see a greater goal here, and people will come back together. We're not going to give up, for example, the fight for a universally accessible, affordable child care system in this country until we get it. Women's organizations aren't going to back out on advocating for women's equality. It will be done under an atmosphere of oppression, of what we have to fight against, instead of what we're fighting for.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have. I'm sorry.

We're going to move to the next round.

Mr. Martin, for five minutes, sir.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I have a couple of things, and then I want to put three quick questions. If you can answer them quickly, we can get through them.

In terms of who the government consults, some of the commentary that's been made out there, and the long-term impacts of these decisions that they're making, certainly the Ottawa Citizen is on the record as saying the $3 million a year the federal government has provided to the CPRN has been well spent on social science and research, whose results have sometimes told the government things they'd rather not hear. That money is going to be eliminated. It seems that the government would prefer to hear from bureaucrats whose work they can control, but that's a dangerous habit if they're hoping to make sound policy decisions.

In some instances, we know who the government is listening to. For example, they've just signed a $24 million contract with a firm from Chicago to advise them on procurement policy. They're not talking to Canadians or Canadian firms with the mandate to do the kind of research you've been mandated to do. They're out there contracting with American firms.

Having said that, to the Muttart Foundation, in the letter you sent to the Prime Minister—I have a copy of that letter too—you went on to say:

...that funding cuts...that affect voluntary non-profit organizations—amounting to some $200 million of the $1 billion total—will hurt some of our most vulnerable citizens and will create social deficits that will require far more than $1 billion to repair.

So of my three questions, one is to CASA. Do you think the private sector will in fact do the hiring that is now being done through the student summer career program?

The second question is to the Muttart Foundation, on the contract you signed in April. Do you have any legal recourse if the government signs a contract with you, walks in, and unilaterally breaks it? Maybe others might want to comment on that. That presents to me as a little strange.

And I would want some comment, if we have time, on the comment you made in your letter that this would take $1 billion to repair if we go ahead with these cuts.

[Toby White]

I understand that the government doesn't want to be giving funding to businesses or organizations that would be hiring a student anyway or ones that would be hiring a student at the same rate. I understand the desire to look for efficiencies there. But there have been studies done on the summer career placement program, and the vast majority of organizations are hiring students they otherwise would not have been able to afford. There was a study done in 1997 that showed that less than 20% would have been able to hire a student otherwise.

We're looking at a funding cut that is much larger than that, and after a couple of years it could cut the budget of that program in half. The consequence is that students will lose jobs. There probably will be a small number of organizations that will be able to still hire students, but for the most part, what we're fearful of is that this does mean students are going to be losing jobs.

[Sharon Manson Singer]

The Canadian Policy Research Networks will not be pursuing legal recourse with respect to our contract. We think it's much more valuable for us to continue to contribute our resources in the area of knowledge rather than fighting a legal battle that's lopsided in terms of size. I don't think it's in the best interest of any of us to go that way. It's much more important to talk about what's going to be substituted and how that can be improved.

If we think policy capacity is there within government to perform in a way that the outside, third-party research does, I don't think that's possible. I can say that not only as the president of a think tank, but as a professor of public policy over many decades and as a deputy minister in provincial governments, where I observed first-hand the policy capacity that exists not only in the federal government but across this country.

It is a difficult situation in Canada. We are thin on the ground when compared to OECD countries and certainly when compared to our neighbours to the south. The intellectual capital that exists in Canada to give good advice is quite thin on the ground, so this is a significant blow.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Would anyone like to add another comment?

[Bob Wyatt]

Some of the research on child care and crime prevention indicates that for $1 spent on prevention you will save $14 in treatment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Storseth.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Ms. Byers, I thought I was having some problems with my headset earlier, because I thought I heard you say that since the mid-1990s, $10 billion had been cut in your area. Is that true?

[Barb Byers]

Compounding the lack of employer investment and skills training—which includes workplace-based skills development, apprenticeship, and literacy—are the federal government's cuts to spending on training. These cutbacks have amounted to more than $10 billion since the mid-1990s. However, the Liberal government attempted to put at least some of that back.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

So following Mr. Regan's comments, and now we have Mr. Coderre here, the former government came to you before each of these cuts and wanted to know what you thought of them.

[Barb Byers]

I can't say they came to us in every instance, but we certainly had an opportunity to put forward our positions.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

When one of the greatest slash-and-burn governments in the history of Canada promised $3.5 billion days before an election, were you not a little suspicious?

[Barb Byers]

Suspicious...?

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Okay, never mind. You said that aboriginal workers and people with disabilities were one of the keys to labour force shortages, and that we needed to address this.