Human Resources Committee on Oct. 24th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), our study on employability in Canada, I'd like to take this second to thank all the witnesses for being here today. This is a very important issue that we face across the country, and what we've been doing is starting here on the east coast. We'll be finishing our swing this week, and then in a couple of weeks we'll be heading out west to do that as well. We want to thank you very much, as I said, for being here.

We're going to start with Ms. Keddy for seven minutes. Then we'll start with the first round of questions and answers for seven minutes and a second round of five minutes. That's the way we'll work today.

Seven minutes goes by pretty quickly, so do your best to get it all in. I will give you a one-minute sign. As I said, some of the previous presenters spent a couple of minutes talking about their organization. We're really looking for recommendations and solutions, so if you think you need to cut anything, we'd appreciate if you'd cut on the organization and we'll get it out of the background information.

As the last thing, if you've brought any anything that needs to be translated, it will be translated in due course and sent out to the committee members.

Without any more of my preamble, Ms. Keddy, seven minutes, please.

[Shawnna Keddy, Project Coordinator, Community Development, Acadia Centre for Small Business and Entrepreneurship]

Great. Thank you very much.

[Elly Danica, Consultant, Older Worker Transitions, Acadia Centre for Small Business and Entrepreneurship]

We're presenting together, so....

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Most definitely. Sorry, Ms. Danica. Thank you very much.

[Elly Danica]

Good afternoon, honourable members and fellow presenters.

My name is Elly Danica, and I am an older worker transition consultant and an older worker. For the past three years I've been working for the Acadia Centre for Small Business and Entrepreneurship in Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, which has been actively involved in facilitating support for older workers in this province.

In partnership with the Nova Scotia Department of Education and Service Canada, several initiatives were completed with the goal to help older workers, aged 55 to 64, re-enter the workforce and maintain their jobs.

[Shawnna Keddy]

Good afternoon. Bonjour. My name is Shawnna Keddy, and I'm a community development project coordinator with the Acadia Centre for Small Business and Entrepreneurship in Wolfville, Nova Scotia. For the past several years I've been involved in seeking support for and managing various regional projects tailored towards older workers.

We would like to speak to you today about effective strategies to support the employment and retention of the older workforce in Nova Scotia.

[Elly Danica]

Who are older workers in Nova Scotia? We are individuals aged 50 to 64 who are experiencing a number of challenging social and employability issues. The older worker clients whom we assisted over the past three years presented various barriers to employment. The social issues they identify include low confidence levels, age discrimination, low literacy and essential skill levels, and limited access to public transportation.

[Shawnna Keddy]

The employability issues that older worker clients struggle with are displacement from a long-term employer, lack of technology skills, low education levels, and change in physical ability.

[Elly Danica]

The one common characteristic of older workers is that we want to work and continue to contribute to our communities. Older workers want to work smarter, not harder.

[Shawnna Keddy]

Numerous results were achieved through the successful implementation of various older worker projects. We have formulated recommendations based on the information, experiences, and feedback gathered throughout the past three years.

Our first recommendation is to support employers in retaining older workers. We suggest the development of an awareness campaign targeted toward employers to promote the value and benefits of recruiting and maintaining an older workforce, particularly to ensure that the essential knowledge transfer occurs in business and organizations. We also suggest that employers be informed on ways to target their human resources policies to meet the needs of the aging workforce.

An article in the August 16, 2006, Canadian HR Reporter entitled, “Unprepared for aging workers”, lists ways to integrate older worker programs in existing HR policies. They advise promoting a positive work environment for all employees, setting up flexible work arrangements, changing the way work is done to reduce physical strain, providing opportunities for older workers to mentor or train young people, providing training support to mature workers, giving special compensation such as perks or bonuses to mature workers, training employees on respecting older colleagues, and making sure hiring and promotion processes do not discriminate on the basis of age.

We know from our experience in working with older worker clients that these initiatives would make a significant difference to the employability and retention of older workers in Nova Scotia.

[Elly Danica]

Our second recommendation is to encourage older workers to participate in lifelong learning activities. A large number of clients that existed through older worker projects were in need of skill development, which included essential skills such as literacy and computer training and upgrading of their existing level of training.

Accessible financial support is required to encourage lifelong learning activities for older workers. This would particularly include financial support for gap clients. A gap client is someone who does not fit into the existing funding structures for skill development. Bridge funding would allow a person to acquire specific updated skills in their field, as well as funding for the process of validation of prior learning and past work experience to acquire certification. For example, a fisherman with over thirty years of experience in marine engine repair does not qualify on land as a diesel mechanic even though he has never met a diesel engine he couldn't fix.

Recommendation three is for a continuation of programs and services tailored to meet the needs of older workers, which also includes best practices learned from previous projects. Some of the best practices gleaned from the older worker projects in Nova Scotia were activities to support older workers through their life-work transitions with one-on-one coaching and peer group learning--for example, to assist older workers to identify and pursue retirement careers--and delivery of specific programs for older workers that address social and employability issues, such as the age advantage program, a transition program for older workers that takes an entrepreneurial approach to addressing the issues.

Consistent accessible support for older workers requires sustainable financial support for programs and services.

[Shawnna Keddy]

Our final recommendation is to continue to involve the Nova Scotia Department of Education's skills and learning branch to build upon and enhance established partnerships with community organizations such as ours that work directly with older workers.

On behalf of the Acadia Centre for Small Business and Entrepreneurship, I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the vision and work of the Nova Scotia Department of Education's skills and learning branch in support of older worker initiatives. It is our hope that long-term funding will be provided by the federal government to assist provinces to continue to support the aging workforce.

I would like to thank the honourable members of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities for the opportunity to share our recommendations on strategies to support the employment and retention of older workers in Nova Scotia.

Merci.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much. You're right on time.

Mr. Kymlicka, you have seven minutes.

[Stephen Kymlicka, Senior Policy Analyst, Atlantic Institute for Market Studies]

Good afternoon, Chairman Allison, distinguished members of the committee, and fellow panellists. It is a privilege to be here to share the work of the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies, specifically our research on the labour market.

On first read, the article in The Globe and Mail last Thursday, which highlighted a backlog of over 20,000 immigrant cases in part due to forty vacancies at the Immigration and Refugee Board, was ironically funny. However, recently released business condition survey figures show that 9% of firms experienced production difficulties due to a lack of skilled labour, and a further 5% reported difficulties due to a lack of unskilled labour.

In this light, the backlog of immigrant cases must be seen as a serious strain on our economy, and there are some examples locally. We have a huge restaurant and food sector here, in part due to our tourism industry and in part just because we love to eat.

The Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association has just released a report projecting huge labour shortages throughout the industry. This industry, like many other services, cannot be outsourced to China or India. It must be done by people right here in Canada, not offshore.

The Dalhousie business school had more recruiters on-site last month than in all of the previous years. The Warren Group, a Maritimes trucking company, recently brought in ten drivers from Europe to help ease the acute shortage of long-haul truck drivers. In P.E.I. there are twenty Russian guest workers at a fish processing plant and a request for twenty more. These are just some examples.

In response to requests from businesses across the region, every provincial government in Atlantic Canada now has an immigration policy and, I believe, an agreement with Ottawa. Under these provincial nominee programs, needed workers can be fast-tracked. However, immigration is not enough. We have an aging population that birth rates do not offset. Furthermore, the profile of immigrants mirrors our society in that many of our immigrants face retirement as well.

Recent studies have shown that if existing trends continue, the Maritimes will be faced with an unemployment rate of below 3% within ten years. As you know, 3% is approximately the minimum unemployment rate associated with structural and frictional shifts in the labour market. Below this level, the economy must shrink.

That's a very unique situation for Atlantic Canada. We haven't had this before.

We need to lose the assumption that everyone needs to be a software engineer or a biotechnician. Many of the jobs that are already going begging in Canada are for skilled and semi-skilled blue collar workers. I've already mentioned truck drivers, fish plant workers, and restaurant workers. If Canadians are unwilling to perform these tasks, we are going to need to think about how we are going to get them done, as many of them cannot be outsourced but must be done close to home.

Part of the solution lies in taking up President Vicente Fox's invitation for Canada and Mexico to set up a guest worker program. Mexico is the NAFTA partner we ignore, and yet as both Canada and the United States enter a period of labour shortages, having a large pool of unemployed labour on our doorstep may prove to be a huge boon. However, we should not take these workers for granted. Just as employers compete for more workers, Canada will have to compete. The highest-value guest workers or immigrants are much sought after everywhere. They have more destinations to choose from than ever before that offer high standards of living and personal security. At the very least, we need methods to fast-track the recognition of foreign credentials.

Another part of the solution is increased productivity. It's not a question of whether a firm can hire the people it thinks it needs, because nobody is going to find the workers they need. The problem is trying to find out whether the firms and governments can modernize themselves through the use of information technology, outsourcing non-core functions, more rigorous management, etc. That's allowing them to do their essential work while drawing far less on the country's labour pool. You actually need far fewer people to do what you really need to do, and you need to pay them much better.

Productivity can come from many sources. One key area is removing barriers to worker mobility. The usual examples in the literature include architects, accountants, and engineers. However, my wife, for example, had to take an additional course for early childhood education here in Nova Scotia when we moved here from Saskatchewan. A research report last year from the OECD ranked Canada as the worst in the G-7 in barriers to labour mobility.

By the way, deregulation is nothing to be afraid of. Remember, a labour shortage is a worker's best friend. Workers are entering an era of high and rising bargaining power, and not just on wages. For example, many long distance drivers have negotiated a rework of the delivery chain as a series of six-hour drop-offs. No longer do they need to be away for a month at a time. They can live at home and have a normal family life.

In an effort to maximize the available labour pool, many people are leveraging technology to help disabled people. I'm reminded of the story from a colleague who told me of a PowerPoint presentation delivered by a blind person. The JAWS program reads the slides rapidly to the presenter. As such, he could make allowances for those in the audience who needed visual aid.

This brings us to the elimination of regionally differentiated EI and regional development spending on business support and many kinds of other business subsidies. Political opposition is going to be much more muted as the labour shortages spread across the country. It is no longer necessary to leave Mabou or Bathurst for Toronto and Calgary. It may be quite sufficient to go to Moncton or Halifax.

In fact, Halifax needs this rural-urban move today. In 2005, Halifax's employment rate was higher than Toronto's, Vancouver's, and Montreal's. It was one thing when people had some sympathy, when we had the argument that there were no jobs, but in an era of massive labour shortages, the moral and economic arguments coincide. There is no case on either score for continuing to pay people not to work or to try to create artificial employment at the cost of higher taxes when genuine, sustainable business has to shelve development plans for lack of workers.

In short, we are experiencing an acute labour shortage, and the situation is getting worse. Immigration may provide short-term softening of the blow. However, it is not enough. Furthermore, we are in competition for quality immigrants and guest workers. We need to streamline the process for them and recognize their qualifications. For that matter, we need to recognize our own qualifications and remove barriers to worker mobility. We need to identify the labour gaps and promote those fields aggressively, whether they be skilled, semi-skilled, or non-skilled.

Lastly, we have to stop paying for regional schemes that are disincentives to resolving these pressing problems. All these barriers directly hurt our productivity, and in the age of competing global supply chains, productivity is king. We need to leverage technology to expand our worker force and to make do with fewer workers.

Thank you very much for your attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Kymlicka.

We'll have Ms. Bourgeois.

[Andreea Bourgeois, Senior Policy Analyst, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, Canadian Federation of Independent Business]

Good afternoon, fellow panellists, and especially honourable members of the committee.

I am Andreea Bourgeois. I am senior policy analyst with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. I represent over 11,500 members in Atlantic Canada. I just want to make it clear that I speak on behalf of our members in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island.

Because I know the time is limited, I am going to start with the end of my presentation, which are the recommendations. Basically, CFIB has three main recommendations that will vary by province, so I will give you the general recommendations and then get into specific provincial numbers.

The first one is that we would like the government to ensure that government initiatives help, not hurt, growing labour shortages. I'm going to give you one example of a great initiative that has been very well received by the small business owners--the one with the federal apprenticeship handout. It has been great. I have received many phone calls asking when you are going to expand it. That's one of the things that worked really well. It was implemented very fast and people have clear indications of how to apply for it.

The second recommendation is to focus on multi-level approaches and policies. I am just going to build on what my colleague actually spoke about, and I'm going to give you one example of what I mean about including provincial partners in that equation. Let's say everyone here in all the Atlantic provinces talks about immigration right now. You have the power to increase immigration and to promote immigration in these provinces. However, language training is something that has to be done in partnership with the provincial education departments. It would be best if they were aware in advance when immigration is to be promoted here, rather than after the fact.

The third recommendation is that businesses understand they do have a role to play. They know they are responsible, and we're not asking for funding; they're not asking for money. It's a solution that will also actually involve you, involve departments of educations locally, and involve all kinds of other partners and business owners themselves.

I think it is time for the federal government to step up and be the big brother and provide information and education to business owners on how to achieve their goals. I am talking about the region. It's not an unknown fact that the Atlantic provinces have performed well in the past years; however, they are lagging behind the Canadian average.

They do have very healthy employment plans for the future, however. In terms of full-time employment, we have 67% of businesses in the maritime provinces that plan to increase full-time employment and 78% that plan to increase part-time employment for the next year.

However, what happens is that they have labour shortages. I know the numbers don't seem much, maybe, in comparison to what we hear of in western Canada, but years ago the numbers here used to be in the 20% range. Right now in P.E.I., the smallest province, 47.5% of business owners complain about labour shortages. It's huge for the Island. They used to be in the 20% range; now it's double that.

In New Brunswick the figure is 42%. In Nova Scotia the figure is 31.3%. These are huge numbers for this region.

One of our reports published last year, based on two years of data, showed that there are long-term vacancy rates. At any point in time, a business will have a vacancy. It's the natural course of action. A long-term vacancy occurs when they have had a position open for more than four months. These vacancy rates have been persistent in 2004 and 2005, and they have been increasing from 3.1% to 3.7%. Just to give you an example for New Brunswick, it's the third highest rate for Canada. Of course, you have Alberta and B.C. that were on top of that, and Saskatchewan, followed by New Brunswick.

I don't think we should wait for the situation here in the Maritimes to get as bad as in the west before we actually do something to help the business owners.

Moreover, when we asked them about the future, entrepreneurs seemed to be optimistic. That's the way they run their businesses. However, they were very pessimistic in terms of employment. As to whether they believe it will become easier or harder, 70% said it's going to become even harder to employ people in the next five years. They already see it as hard, but when they said “harder”, that really scared us.

Just to give you again the magnitude of the numbers for the long-term vacancy rate, what this meant was that in 2005 alone there were 2,500 jobs open in P.E.I. That may not seem a lot for Ottawa. That's probably an apartment building, but it's a lot for the Island economy. In Nova Scotia there were 12,000 jobs--a good couple of apartment buildings here--that could have been filled with people working.

Business owners don't actually stand on the side and wait for someone to solve their problems. What they do is obviously hire underqualified people and then train them. They pass responsibilities among the employees they have, and so on.

And worse, some of them ignore business opportunities. There is a very high likelihood of a business owner in the Maritimes ignoring business opportunities. They just don't know where else to go and they prefer to say no to an order coming in.

I wanted to tell you what is specific to this region. While all across Canada the most cited difficulty for hiring was the lack of candidates with education, experience, or the set of skills, what was more likely to be said in the Maritimes as to why they had hiring difficulties was first of all about the lack of resources to pay a higher salary. It's very hard to compete.

By anecdotal evidence you know that the federal government is a very big employer in the region. They offer very good packages and benefits. It's very hard for small businesses to compete. They need the same qualified people as everyone else.

The other reason was that “there are too few people in my local area looking for work”. Those were entrepreneurs in northern New Brunswick saying that. Well, where do they think the employees went? They went out west, so of course it's hitting them. It's a different kind of problem than what you have in the west, but it's hitting them here too.

The third reason is the nature of the work. The reality in the Maritimes is that there is a lot of seasonal and temporary work. A fish plant cannot work more than a couple of months a year—if they're lucky, maybe May to October; if not, it's only a twelve-week season a year. What do those employees do after that?

These reasons are way more likely to be quoted as very hard difficulties here in the Maritimes than in the rest of Canada.

The next slide talks about training. What they actually do when they employ someone who's underqualified, who doesn't have the experience, who doesn't have the skills, is they train them. It's very common in Atlantic Canada to provide informal training. It's very easy to recognize where formal training is; however, here they prefer to be trained by their suppliers, by a mentor within the business, or by someone else who has more experience. Sending employees out for training is much less practised in this region of the country.

Of course, the top three things the federal government can do to help with the shortage of labour are to lower the tax burden—that would allow them to have more resources to pay their employees and to invest in training; rebalance the social programs, such as EI, and lower the payroll taxes; and offer more information on where to access training.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Messenger, you have seven minutes, sir.

[Keith Messenger, Strategic Planning and Policy Analyst, Skills and Learning Branch, Nova Scotia Department of Education]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the issue of employability in Canada.

My name is Keith Messenger, and I am a strategic planning and policy analyst for the skills and learning branch of the Nova Scotia Department of Education.

Employability is a key component of Canada's economic and social future. As in many other provinces and jurisdictions, Nova Scotia faces a multitude of challenges regarding both its current and future workforce.

Today, I would like to discuss a key provincial initiative designed to help address these challenges: the Nova Scotia skills and learning framework. In addition, I'll offer some highlights of what's been done in the past year and what we would like to see for the future.

Released in 2002, the framework was designed to help address a number of a labour force and education challenges that hindered the development of a well-balanced, skilled, and knowledgeable labour force. Some of the labour force challenges included an aging and decreasing population as well as increased education and training requirements for most jobs. The education challenges included a significantly high number of people without a high school diploma, as well as many people with minimal or low literacy and numeracy skills.

The framework consists of three goals: first, to meet the skill needs of Nova Scotia's labour market; second, to provide better labour market access and supports to Nova Scotians; and third, to strengthen Nova Scotia's system of lifelong learning opportunities.

“The Skills Nova Scotia Annual Progress Report 2005-2006” highlights Nova Scotia's impressive record of success in moving the province's skills agenda forward.

As outlined in the report, the accomplishments of 21 provincial departments, agencies, and offices, as well as engaged stakeholders from business, industry, educational institutions, community organizations, and labour reflect the actions needed to support Nova Scotia in developing a world-class workforce fully prepared to take advantage of existing and future opportunities.

Under the first goal, meeting the skill needs of Nova Scotia's labour force means having a finger on the pulse of Nova Scotia's immediate, emerging, and future labour market needs. Timely and accurate labour market information underlies the development of responsive policies and programs and supports labour market decision-making.

Some highlights from accomplishments of the past year include round tables with CEOs of Nova Scotia's largest companies. A research project was initiated to gain a better understanding of the economic and social policy implementations of Nova Scotia's changing demographic situation. The “2005 Nova Scotia Labour Market Review”, which outlines key labour market statistics in Nova Scotia, was published. Numerous education and training programs were introduced to address labour market skills, shortages, and gaps. The development of policies and programs to promote safe and healthy work environments, fair employment standards, and stable labour-management relations was continued. Considerable progress was also made in developing a process for recognizing international credentials and helping immigrants to understand the process that must be undertaken to practise their professions in Nova Scotia.

With respect to the second goal, coordinating programs and services to support Nova Scotians in making career and employment choices is critical for the success of the skills Nova Scotia framework. This involves providing career and employment counselling services and resources, and ensuring access to education and training for all Nova Scotians.

In the past year, access to employment counselling services was expanded through a variety of print, classroom, and web-based resources. New publications and resources to support students, teachers, counsellors, and parents were developed, and the Nova Scotia career website was expanded to include career development and employment sections, as well as additional Nova Scotia-specific labour market information.

The Educate to Work program, an employment development pilot project, and a new grant for first-time students from low-income families all provided workplace learning and enhancement of employment opportunities for income assistance recipients and low-income individuals. Programs for groups underrepresented in the labour market were supported.

Our third goal, the nurturing of a lifelong learning culture in Nova Scotia, is a prerequisite for the continued development of a skilled and knowledgeable labour force. In 2005-06, great strides were made in encouraging positive attitudes toward learning to prepare Nova Scotians at all stages of life for success in the future.

In 2005-06, developmentally appropriate education and literacy programs for children were supported. A program called Options and Opportunities, which was designed to expand secondary students' exposure to the education and career choices available to them after graduation, was piloted.

Cooperative education and apprenticeship programs were developed to provide valuable work experience and apprenticeship hours for our youth. In 2005-06 alone, approximately 500 adult learners graduated with their high school graduation diplomas through the Nova Scotia School for Adult Learning, bringing the total number of graduates to almost 2,000 since 2001. Most of these adult learners went on to further education and to find better employment opportunities.

Construction of the new Nova Scotia Community College, Metro campus, and the renovations for existing campuses that has commenced, will bring Nova Scotia's college system capacity to approximately 10,000 seats by 2007.

The skills Nova Scotia framework is an effective catalyst for creating strategic partnerships and opportunities for skills partners to work hand in hand to advance programs to meet common needs. The result of these cooperative efforts among industry, business, and government is a more focused and sustained effort to develop and distribute the programs and services we need to develop a skilled, knowledgeable, and responsive workforce.

For the future, a retention, recruitment, repatriation, and retraining initiative will assist in assuring that supply meets demand in the Nova Scotia labour market, and we see the federal government's role as greatly aiding the province in the deployment of its programs by taking a new approach to the labour market development agreement, the LMDA, by devolving responsibility to the province and by implementing a labour market partnership agreement, an LMPA, to allow flexibility to use funding for employees at risk, underemployed and underutilized groups, and other non-EI-eligible clients.

One glove doesn't fit all. Federal programs are appreciated but need flexibility and adaptability to work in local systems and markets. Education and training is the foundation of productivity, and Nova Scotia needs federal support for initiatives that increase productivity--individual and otherwise.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We'll start with Mr. Regan, for seven minutes.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all for coming today.

I want to congratulate Acadia University for its involvement in your program, particularly in view of the fact that my daughter is there in first year at your institution. I must tell you, having said that, that I gained a whole new respect for Mr. Kymlicka when I spotted his X-ring, which shows that he's a graduate from the number one undergraduate university in the country, which my daughter didn't choose, for some reason. That's her choice. They're both great universities, as they all are in Nova Scotia, of course.

I have lots of questions. I will start with Mr. Kymlicka, if I may.

I agree with your focus on immigrants and their importance for our region, without question. In fact, I appreciated the paper by Brian Crowley a couple of years ago when he talked about the fact that we have to be a welcoming society. It isn't enough to be tolerant of immigrants; we have to make them feel welcome. It's a matter of the heart when you move somewhere new, and we have to understand that and make sure that people feel welcome in all our communities. That's one of our challenges.

You focused on immigrants and how we need to bring more of them into our region to solve or to deal with our shortage of workers and skilled workers. What I didn't hear about were people who are kind of on the margins and have been left behind, such as adults, for instance, who need literacy training or skills upgrading and so on to be more a part of our workforce. It seems to me that there is a role for government in terms of those kinds of programs, and I'd like your thoughts on that.

Second, you talk about it not making sense to pay people to stay home and so forth. Let me just ask you about older workers. We heard Monday in St. John's from the FFAWU, of course, defending fishermen and people working in the fishing industry. They spoke of women who are 58 and 60 years old who worked their whole lives on concrete floors with their hands in cold water cutting fish, and who now have arthritis and bad backs. They're not really in a position to learn to be rocket scientists or software engineers and so on.

What would you propose we do with people like that? What kind of support programs...? Do we put income support programs in place? Would you really argue that they have to move from where they are and find new employment and new skills?

[Stephen Kymlicka]

My response would be that there are jobs that are available for a lot of people in a lot of regions, and in the face of labour shortages, companies will go to great lengths to try to fill those needs. I'm reminded, for example, of McDonald's during the Clinton administration, which actually went out and created cash registers for illiterate people because they needed bodies. Obviously, those aren't the people you are talking about. These are people who have worked long and hard and who have skills in certain areas. It's just that there have been structural shifts. They have far more to bring to the table, and employers would be more than happy to try to use those workers.

Let me remind you, from my notes, that 5% of employers said they experienced production difficulties because of a lack of unskilled workers. That's a huge amount. We need them; we need everybody. Certainly there are going to be people who can't work, and we have to acknowledge that, but for those people who can, there are many opportunities.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Ms. Danica was just shaking her head. It's interesting, because you were also talking about helping older workers get into the workforce. But I have the sense that you're saying that for someone who is willing to live his whole life in an outport in Newfoundland and Labrador, the answer isn't necessarily to move to Halifax.

[Elly Danica]

The problem is most people in that age group have invested very heavily in their communities and they're not willing to move. I don't think having government programs that compel them to move to get a job will work when their employability is quite limited because of physical changes and they don't have the educational levels to work in cities. So there really are some very serious problems.

On the scenario you painted, I've met a number of older workers in the fishing industry with very similar scenarios. They find that in our community there isn't enough adaptability within the employing population to accommodate their specific needs. Some people can't stand because their feet have been smashed while working in the fishery. It would be very difficult for the woman you described to work in a retail environment and stand all day. She couldn't do it because of health constraints. But to retrain her if she still wishes to work--and many of us do--we don't have the infrastructure and support to allow that to happen.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

We heard this morning from groups involved in working with people with disabilities--and also yesterday in St. John's--that the kinds of supports that are needed are different because people have disabilities or are older, for example.

I'd like both of your views--particularly these two groups, but also anyone who wants to add to it--on the question of what governments should be doing to assist in providing supports to employers, and to employees who are either older or have disabilities, to ensure they can be available as part of the workforce in the situation we have with skill shortages.

The other question I asked earlier was about providing services for adult learners. You didn't have time to answer that.

[Elly Danica]

I think the federal government could provide support and leadership for employers to make them aware of what they're dealing with when they have an older workforce. There are skills that are going begging because these older workers are not getting the training or retraining support, as the case may be.

If the woman from your scenario is interested in working in a different field, unless she has enough EI credits she is not able to do that. What also happens is that when a skill development program proposal goes forward there is not exactly a bias, but there's an awareness that the person is 58 years old and requires two years of retraining. How long is that person going to be in the workforce, and is that a viable return?

So there are issues around retraining. There are issues around employer awareness. For example, many older workers, myself included, cannot work in low-light environments. If an employer wants me to bring my skills into his place, he has to give me a chair that supports my back and light levels so I can actually perform the work.

We don't have enough awareness yet, and the government can provide leadership to say, look, we have this untapped resource of older workers, and a little bit of investment--not a huge investment--by the employer will actually get you the people you need. It will also help with knowledge transfer, so younger people can have the information they need to retain the corporate vision, the institutional memory.