Human Resources Committee on Oct. 24th, 2006

[Andreea Bourgeois]

I'm sure there are other reasons, but just looking at the numbers—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll wait for the next round for those.

We're going to move to Mr. D'Amours, for five minutes.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would also like to thank you for appearing before us this afternoon. I must tell you that the discussions you have raised are interesting. I am in my second term as a Member of Parliament. We just began to work on the whole issue of employability a few months ago. There has been an increasingly strange perception. Apparently some people in this country thought that in the Maritimes, in the Atlantic provinces — I am from New Brunswick — there was no problem finding employees, as if there were too many employees for the number of jobs available. I think it is more the opposite that is happening. In any case, I am pleased to hear you talk about that.

At a Human Resources Committee meeting a few months ago, I remember, a member from the government side said that the federal government should introduce financial initiatives to encourage people in the Atlantic provinces to go to Alberta. I think that would only take the problem and move it, which would produce even more problems. I’m glad the member is not among us today, because he certainly would have grimaced. Be that as it may, he will know that I said it again.

Ms. Bourgeois, when you said that, in future, there will be nearly 12,000 jobs in New Brunswick, clearly that is important for workers, if we count people who have the opportunity to work.

You mentioned the issue of discrimination, Ms. Bourgeois. I think Ms. Danica or Ms. Keddy said that discrimination should not exist, but it still exists. It would be sticking our heads in the sand like an ostrich to say that there should not be discrimination because it's against the law. Everybody does it, but no one says so. I think that is the problem. It's true that a woman who is of child-bearing age may be a victim of discrimination. That is also the case for young people who don’t have enough experience and older people who may no longer have the physical capabilities some employers are looking for. But some day employers will have to understand that each one can contribute something positive to a business, whether it is a woman, a young person or an older person. Each and every one can contribute something positive.

You are from New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, Ms. Bourgeois; you represent the Canadian Federation of Independent Business. When you did your assessment, your studies, did you take seasonal workers into consideration, among the 12,000 jobs in New Brunswick and maybe in the other Maritime regions? If so, what risk — and I would encourage anyone who wants to answer my question — would be associated with retraining those workers for a permanent job that does not currently exist? What happens the next year, the next season? What is done to fill the job that was held by a seasonal worker? The reality is that there are still people in this country who forget or do not know that fish is not caught in Toronto, that a two-by-four does not come from a sawmill in downtown Montreal, and I could go on. We have to convey this message, repeat it over and over again. A study was done in a Toronto school in which children were asked where pumpkins came from. The young people answered they came from Loblaws. So there is a lack of understanding of the Canadian, the pan-Canadian reality, from one end of the country to the other. In rural areas, we may be a bit slow to understand the whole country but it is an everyday reality.

I am going to stop talking because the Chairman is going to tell me the time available to me has run out. I am going to let you answer my questions, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I'll remind the member that we have Lake Ontario, which is full of lots of fish, right?

Not nearly enough.

Who wanted to start? We have about a minute left.

Madame Bourgeois.

[Andreea Bourgeois]

Yes, you are right. In the study we did, there were 11,500 vacant jobs in New Brunswick, 12,000 in Nova Scotia and 2,500 in Prince Edward Island. The question is really very simple. Your analyst can access all our figures; they are in the presentation I provided.

We asked employers how many employees they currently had and how many jobs had been vacant for four months or more. We didn’t want to know the ones that had been vacant for two or three weeks. We cleaned up the data for the calculations. For example, if an employer answered 50 when he employed 80 people, it was much too high. We really cleaned up as much as we could. Yes, our figures may include part-time and seasonal employees. Therefore the number may be lower.

At the Moncton office, where I often answer the telephone, I received a call from an employer who has a fish processing business in Shédiac. He asked me very honestly how he could help his employees obtain employment insurance benefits. I thought I had misunderstood; he repeated his question. He told me he worked from May to October and did not want to lose his qualified employees. He told me they were the best and if they went elsewhere to find a full-time job, he would really be in trouble. He had no one to replace them. He asked me what he should do so his employees qualify for employment insurance. I gave him the information he asked me for and that was it. That happens often.

It’s true that people in major urban centres who have not lived in regions like mine, including me who had to learn all that, do not realize that employees who work in fish processing plants are highly valued and add great value to their company. That is their lifestyle. There are people who do something else during the season when there is no fishing and are able to maintain the skills they have learned; however, that does not apply to everyone.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Let's have just a quick response, as we're over time.

Mr. Kymlicka.

[Stephen Kymlicka]

There was an excellent study done by a guy at Queen's and a guy at a California university comparing the effect on the economy of EI between New Brunswick and Maine. They talked about many of these issues of using the employees from the seasonal work environment in other jobs versus not.

In Maine, where they don't have the EI program, they found high levels of re-employment in the off-season, and substantial GDP gains for the state generally. So at AIMS we have argued that this in essence is a subsidy to the fishing industry and that many of these people can in fact find work in the second half of the season. Certainly that has been the case in Maine; the data are very convincing. I can provide the study to the committee, if you'd like.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Sure. If you'd forward it to the clerk at some point in time, that would be great.

That's all the time we have. I apologize for that. But I'm sure Mr. Lessard has five minutes.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to come back to a statement or information Mr. Kymlicka gave earlier that there are no immigrant workers in Canada because the teamsters blocked them from coming in. That is what I understood. I’m trying to see what he meant because, in Quebec, which has not yet separated... That may come but it is still part of Canada.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

As I was saying, thousands of Mexican workers come each year to Quebec, particularly since the mid-1980s. They sometimes work in pretty difficult conditions, in jobs Quebecers do not want. Therefore they fill a labour shortage. They come to plant crops for the vegetable farmers and stay for the harvest. They are there for a period of approximately six months. Those workers are now talking about unionizing because they realize they are being exploited, plain and simple, not all, but many of them.

I am probably missing information on the rest of Canada. I didn’t know it was not allowed elsewhere in Canada.

I would like to come back to the issue of older workers. Our Conservative colleague touched briefly on the problem associated with mobility. People who worked and raised their family in a particular place, in a city, in a community, are near their whole family, their friends. In that case, of course, it would be difficult for them to go work in Alberta for two or three years, if that is how long they have left to work.

Once we have looked at the whole picture and realized all the problems faced by older workers, we see all the rich potential of their knowledge and skills.

Wouldn’t it be appropriate to establish a hiring policy literally for older workers based on a number of the characteristics you have raised yourselves, that is, the skills and experience have they acquired and adapted, as well, to their real situation in terms of time and their contribution to the job?

This morning, I was talking about mentoring with someone else. Couldn’t we ask these people, not necessarily to do the same work but to teach others to do it, to support younger people, coach them, maybe for shorter periods of time? It isn’t necessary for them to work 40 hours a week. They no longer have the same needs; however, they still need income, to feel valued. Above all, they have the fundamental need to be aware that they are contributing to society. When someone does not have a sense of being useful, we know where that can lead.

That is my question. Would it not be appropriate to establish a policy adapted for older workers that takes into consideration the contribution they can make?

[Elly Danica]

That would delight me. It would absolutely delight me, and many of the clients I saw over the last three years would be absolutely over the moon to be able to contribute to their communities and to young people in that way.

I agree with you. They don't always have to work forty hours a week to maintain their lifestyles, but they need to feel worthwhile. I think you alluded to that as well.

If not, what tends to happen is depression. They then no longer contribute in any way. With depression and illness, they become a drain on the health care system, whereas simply employing them and continuing to allow them to be part of their communities means they create value.

Yes, your idea of a policy, Monsieur Lessard, is wonderful.

[Andreea Bourgeois]

I think it's a good idea; however, it has to be implemented in such a way so as not to hurt the ones it's meant to help. I'm going to go to the extreme and give you an example of what I mean.

Last year at the federal labour code hearings, someone next to me was representing people with disabilities. He suggested that people with disabilities should be paid less than the minimum wage, to which everyone was almost shocked.

He said they will always receive certain benefits because their physical disabilities require therapy anyway. No salary will actually allow them to have that kind of physical therapy. But if an employer has to pay a minimum wage for him, fortunately, he has two arms and two legs. A minimum wage for someone who doesn't have an arm is such a high risk and it's such a great expense that it actually hurts them.

This person was representing people with disabilities. When talking to him, I learned that's the extreme case. But I think you want to have the kind of policy that will help people, not exactly hurt those it's meant to help.

It's a great idea, but implementation is not going to be easy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're out of time.

Mr. Messenger, would you have a couple of remarks, for about thirty seconds, for Mr. Lessard?

[Keith Messenger]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

With regard to older workers, a larger problem is the number of older workers--specifically in the Nova Scotia context, at least--that will be retiring and the amount of knowledge that will be leaving the labour force. Why? What can the government do? Change the law to allow senior citizens and people who are in receipt of their pension to work three days a week and draw their pension for two days a week. Everybody wins.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

We're going to move to Madame Savoie for five minutes.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I need maybe two more minutes, anyway!

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You can get five minutes, if you want.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Bourgeois, for your comments on early childhood learning and care services. We have been trying for a very long time to say the same thing to the Conservatives and have not succeeded as well as you succeeded in doing this afternoon. You said it very simply and very clearly. So thank you for those comments.

I have two quick questions to ask. Mr. Kymlicka talked about eliminating the mandatory retirement age and, from this side of the table, I saw you nod your head. I agree with that idea, but I see a problem with it. It could have a negative effect. Yes, we could eliminate the mandatory retirement age but, at the same time, I fear we might delay access to benefits, for example, to Canada Pension Plan benefits, etc. For workers who are worn out, who are really ready for retirement, that could pose a problem.

That is a question I am raising. I wonder if you have comments to make on that subject.

[Stephen Kymlicka]

I'm certainly in agreement with Mr. Messenger that there should be no problem with someone working and collecting their pension. They've paid into it all their lives and they're entitled to it. If they still want to contribute over and above that, then why not?

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

So you're not suggesting, for example, as I think has been done in Australia, postponing the benefit for a pension by two years. You're simply saying, let's eliminate the--

[Stephen Kymlicka]

Yes.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Okay. That's one thing.

Some of you have mentioned reducing the tax burden to employers to invite them to hire perhaps older workers. One of the questions I raised in my area--for example, to employers in the IT area--was that specific question: would that help? They said, “Sure, lower taxes. Everything being comparable, that's not a big, big factor for us.” They told me that what they were interested in was good health care being maintained in Canada, having the federal government invest in post-secondary education, in training opportunities, and good public services. They felt that, for their businesses, that would be a much larger advantage than the race to the bottom in taxes that some are advocating.

Can you comment?

[Stephen Kymlicka]

I used to run an IT consulting firm in Saskatchewan and I know a bit about this.

The biggest problem in the IT field--

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I'm sorry, that was just an example I gave. There are others in my area.