Evidence of meeting #25 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
We're going to move on to Madame Bonsant, for five minutes, please.
9:35 a.m.
Bloc
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
I'm going to continue talking with Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Albrecht. I hope you're ready to move to Calgary if you want to go into nursery work, because that's where there's employment.
Mr. O'Leary, there's another reality that people aren't aware of. In my riding, bilingualism is a fact. There are certain places for literacy in French and others for literacy in English. In Lennoxville, in my riding, most of the illiterate people are Anglophones. If the Conservative government doesn't realize that some provinces like New Brunswick and Quebec are bilingual and that they have twofold needs, we'll never manage to do anything. Conservative members, you've heard the message: in Quebec, there is a reality that's called bilingualism. That's part of our culture, of who we are. Even if we don't all have the same political vision, we are Quebeckers and New Brunswickers. That was only a comment, Mr. O'Leary. It should not be forgotten that bilingualism is a fact.
Ms. Kennedy, you say there are people who have acquired knowledge and skills. I want to know the age of those people and their skills. Then I'll ask you another question, depending on the answer.
9:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association for Prior Learning Assessment
Thank you. I think that prior learning assessment is relevant to all ages.
9:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association for Prior Learning Assessment
We have seen some wonderful programs that are in place in high schools to assess the learning of young people with extraordinary skill in one area and perhaps lower skill in another. Prior learning assessment can evaluate that learning and give academic credit for it, so that the extraordinary student doesn't have to take a course in which he or she already has the learning.
That, however, is not the history of prior learning in Canada. Prior learning in Canada started because people with a lot of knowledge and skills acquired through work and life experience did not have a credential, and those without a credential are disadvantaged in the labour force because employers often consider a credential to be a proxy for knowledge and skills. That was essentially how prior learning appealed to adults. They wanted to get a credential, and having their prior learning assessment done first would reduce the time and money required to get that credential, which was viewed--and continues to be viewed--as a barrier.
The same thing applies to immigrants to Canada. Many immigrants want to have a Canadian credential because they see it as having more cachet than a credential from another country. Again, if a prior learning assessment is in place, the repetition of learning is reduced.
That applies to all of us--to those of us who have been working for 25 years and may have gotten our first credentials at the front end of our working lives, but who now want to switch careers and get into something else. We want to have credentials either in the paid or unpaid labour force to help us get into that second career, or we want to get another credential in a completely different area. Again, some part of that knowledge and those skills is transferable. To support a system that allows learning competencies to be assessed before additional training takes place makes intuitive sense, so that we don't all start back at the beginning with an 18-year-old when in fact we're 40, we're in mid-career, and we want to have our existing learning assessed for the purposes of a new credential.
9:40 a.m.
Bloc
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
Do you believe that, in 2006, jobs have increasingly demanding requirements? For example, in health, nurses must now have bachelor's and master's degrees to advance in their careers. Do you think that, at some point, over-education has replaced knowledge and skills?
I had a problem in my riding. A gentleman had worked in upholstery for 35 years. He lost his job at the age of 56. He applied for other jobs and employers didn't want to hire him, not because of his age, but because he was over-qualified. The employer told him that, with the 35 years' experience he had in upholstery, he couldn't pay him the salary he deserved. The gentleman answered that he wasn't asking him for a big salary, but simply to be able to work at providing training. Today he's working: he's training young people on the job.
Do you think that all these requirements, for bachelor's degrees, college diplomas and master's degrees, discourage young people from going into certain fields?
9:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association for Prior Learning Assessment
The nature of work has changed. There's a lot of contract work out there, short-term seasonal contract work that requires people to document and identify their own knowledge and skills, so they can parlay that into whatever job they want to have.
In that particular case, the fact that that person has a lot of formal credentialing doesn't preclude, or doesn't eliminate, the need to articulate their competencies with regard to that new job. But you're right, many people have a plethora of paper credentials, but I'm not really concerned about their problem in getting a job. I'm really concerned about the 50% to 70% who don't have credentials and are being disenfranchised in the labour force because of it. I think the 30% always seem to find their way.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you for that short answer, Ms. Kennedy.
We're going to move to Mr. Martin, five minutes, please.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON
I have a couple of questions for Harold and Victor, but first to say that this summer my daughter worked in a garden centre and my son is still landscaping, both of them earning minimum wage while they're at university.
My first question is--and I'm going to put two in, and I also have one for Mr. John O'Leary when we're done, and I only have five minutes--do you take advantage of the student employment program that happens across the country in the summertime to hire people?
My second question is, you talked about trying to get the unemployed in Newfoundland to move to Ontario or Alberta or wherever. My question is, don't you think that creates a problem, in that if you start moving people around, then they're not there for you when you need them the next time? If somebody's working in fishing and the season's over, and then they move someplace else to landscape, it becomes quite expensive for them.
My experience of the area you're representing here today is that a lot of the work is labour-intensive and it doesn't pay big wages. People I know get minimum wage. The supervisor on the job where my son worked got a dollar more than minimum wage, so I don't know how long they're going to keep him.
Those are the two questions. Do you use the student employment program, and doesn't moving people around create more problems than it solves, in some ways?
9:45 a.m.
Co-Chair, Human Resource Committee, Canadian Nursery Landscape Association
First let me address your question on the programs. In the past we've tried the student employment programs. We hire a number of university students. By the way, our minimum wage is $10 an hour for a university student, and our average foreman makes over $20 an hour. I've already given out three gold watches. We've had people for over 20 or 30 years. That's the key, but you've got to train them.
In answer to your question, it's too much trouble to try to get subsidies, more trouble than the money is worth, more administration than it's worth--a frank, candid answer.
With regard to mobility of the workers from Newfoundland, it's interesting that you say that. Our incoming president is from Newfoundland, and he always says to me, “Harold, can I send you a bunch of people to train?” Then he says, “And then send them back, because then they'll be a whole lot better for me.” He's joking, but he's serious at the same time.
The problem is that we've come to the point where we haven't got labour, period, so we're looking wherever we can. We prefer to hire a Canadian first rather than bring in offshore people. If it means hiring people for a shorter period during the summer months, then we would prefer to target areas in Canada that have a higher unemployment rate, and Newfoundland, as you mentioned, is one of the opportunities, as well as some of the other rural areas in Canada that are looking for employees.
Yes, it would be better to find permanent, long-term labour, but the reality is that they're just not there.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Thank you.
I have a question for John.
You mentioned restructuring the way we deliver literacy programs. In many instances what we're doing now isn't quite as effective as it could be. This is an opportunity perhaps for us to do that, to revisit, relook, and maybe create something new. What will the impact of any of that be, of a reduction in funding for adult literacy of $17.7 million?
9:45 a.m.
President, Frontier College
As I said, if the government had asked me prior to this round of cuts for my opinion, I would say don't do that, because there is an infrastructure place and some of it is being affected, there's no question about that.
As I said earlier, I met with Mr. Allison and other members of the Conservative caucus. They're aware of the issue, and I think there's an openness there to look at this question: what infrastructure is in place, and how can we build it up so that we can teach more people? I know I'm repeating myself.
It's a question of money. More money has to be put into it. A year ago, the minister responsible for literacy was from New Brunswick, Claudette Bradshaw. We were talking to her about annual budget for literacy in the order of $500 million to $600 million per year to start. When I was talking about that number, the officials at the table blanched; they went white. I asked them what the annual budget was for the University of Toronto for one year, to reach 50,000 people, and they didn't know. I said it is $1.3 billion. That's one university for one year.
We keep repeating these figures--that 25% to 30% of adult Canadian citizens have serious literacy problems, and the amount of money that has been spent on it over the past 20 years has simply been too modest. That's why the numbers aren't moving forward.
The good news is, as I said, that if an adult does not know how to read, whether they're a hotel worker, an unemployed worker in my colleague's industry here, a senior, an aboriginal youth, or a homeless person in downtown Winnipeg, we know the programs are in place to reach those people. But there are too few of them and we need to scale it up. So my advice, and I hope I will have the opportunity to continue dialogue--and I think I will--with the government, is that we do need to increase our investment in literacy and we do need to build on the existing infrastructure and increase the capacity so that more people are able to fully realize their potential.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you very much. That's all the time we have.
We're going to Mr. Albrecht, for five minutes.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Thank you.
Ms. Kennedy, I just want to follow up. It's probably covered in your briefing notes that we don't have yet, but how large a group do you work with, how national is it in scope in terms of east to west, and what kind of buy-in have you received from groups such as plumbing or electrical skill types of organizations that are charged with the responsibility of training workers in those fields? Is there a buy-in to the concepts that you've articulated? It certainly seems to me to be something that would be win-win.
9:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association for Prior Learning Assessment
Yes, absolutely. My organization, CAPLA, has about 300 members across Canada and abroad. Those could be individual members or institutions. It varies.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
You said “and abroad”. Of those 300 members, how many would be in Canada, roughly?
9:50 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association for Prior Learning Assessment
The majority would be in Canada.
At the event that we had in New Brunswick last week, we had 11 countries attend. We have members in every province and territory, because prior learning assessment has been in Canada for well over 30 years, but in the absence of any dedicated funding or strategy that identifies the needs of adults, we are very much in the innovative stages, and it's not for lack of trying.
We haven't raised the awareness of prior earning assessment tools in the most effective ways possible. So it's really practitioners who are moving this forward.
There are some notable exceptions. The provinces of Quebec, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan have been real leaders in the area of prior learning assessment. Just recently, the Province of Alberta has had province-wide consultations on prior learning assessment and recognition. So it's becoming more in the public domain than it was before. Our concern, of course, is that there be a national strategy, national guidelines and standards for prior learning assessment. It needs to be rigorous.
The sector council movement is very interested in prior learning assessment. As you know, it is creating industry standards but needs the capacity for people who are experienced in the field to benchmark against those standards. Hence, the tools are required.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Are the provinces you mentioned—Quebec, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan—that already are buying into this doing so at the provincial educational system level, the level of the ministers of education?
9:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association for Prior Learning Assessment
Yes, to a degree. I would say it's more labour force development, more an employability focus, such as the panel is interested in, and immigration as well. But it all has to do with the skills shortage and utilizing older workers and finding out what they know and can do in a coherent, reliable, and valid way. We're still looking at developing those tools, because this is an innovative practice and it needs the support of government.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
I'm just wondering as well what kind of buy-in there is at the community college level, if I could use that term, and among the institutions that would generally be charged with the responsibility of providing skills training.
9:55 a.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association for Prior Learning Assessment
I would say the Association of Canadian Community Colleges is very much a supporter of prior learning assessment. Because of jurisdictional challenges, it's very much up to the institution as to how much funding they want to put into it.
Like any innovative strategy, this requires marketing. If we build it, will they come? Yes, if they know about it, and if we can have someone within the college system to advocate on behalf of adult learners, because people who don't have credentials don't necessarily see themselves as being college material. Adults need to have an advocate within the college system. That is available in some colleges, but not in others.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
I think the encouraging part for me is that the colleges and the ministers of education are becoming aware of it and generally are aware of it, contrary to my belief before I arrived here this morning. So thank you.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
I'll take this time to thank everyone for being here today. I appreciate these are all very relevant and important issues that your groups have touched on.
Ms. Kennedy, one of the things we hear all the time when it comes to recognizing the skills of immigrants who come to this country is that sometimes people don't qualify because they lack the degree, or the diploma, or whatever the case is, and people are calling for more recognition that they possess some skills that are important and would help us out. I appreciate where you're coming from. You have a bit of an uphill battle, because you have to deal with all kinds of organizations to try to coordinate what you're doing, but I encourage you to continue. I think it's very important, very relevant.
We thank the other two groups very much as well for being here and offering some very excellent insight. Thank you.
The meeting is adjourned.