Human Resources Committee on Oct. 26th, 2006

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Could you describe the current appeal process, if there is one?

[Veena Verma]

It's different for each one.

Let me talk to you about the migrant agricultural worker program, the seasonal agricultural worker program, for example. Others may be able to speak to a live-in caregiver program.

The way it works....There is a memorandum of understanding, as you know, and the workers also have to sign employment contracts when they come in. There is no consultation with the workers before they come in, because the argument is that they do this negotiation with the state governments, though I believe there is sometimes a conflict of interest between the sending country and the worker. Their interests may not always be in line. In terms of the contracts, there is language to say that employers can repatriate, without further compensation, for non-compliance, refusal to work, or any other sufficient reason.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I think your answer is that there is no appeal process.

[Veena Verma]

There is absolutely no appeal.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

That was my question.

[Veena Verma]

It would be basically to go to court. You would go to court for breach of contract.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I was not clear whether the current process is flawed, or if there isn't one. I think you've answered that there isn't one.

[Veena Verma]

That's correct, because I think the understanding is that they're supposed to access the system the way a Canadian would, which is to go to court and file a wrongful dismissal complaint, I guess.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Albrecht.

We'll move to the second round, which will be five minutes for the question and answer.

Mr. D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for Ms. Verma and Ms. Devries.

As a liberal MP from New Brunswick, I have supported in my riding a project funded by the previous government and called Carrefour d'immigration rurale and whose objective was to facilitate the integration of immigrants in rural francophone parts of this country. I understand the same thing exist for the anglophone community. It is a matter of integration. First of all, we must get across the idea that we are all immigrants. Secondly, tolerance is somewhat more difficult to bring about in some regions.

You are saying that some people are not necessarily paid the same salary that is being paid to Canadian workers or to workers who live in Canada and have Canadian citizenship. Tell me if I am wrong, but I believe that if there are people who came here to work temporarily in the agriculture sector and who have no status, as you have mentioned, it is because there is a need, or else because workers presently living in Canada and having their citizenship papers do not want some of these jobs, or simply because there is a shortage of workers.

If the people who have the citizenship do not want these jobs or if some industries such as agriculture are really lacking in manpower to fill the existing jobs, we should make sure that these people are respected, because we need them. Let us work accordingly and let us give them the hand that they need: it is a matter of respect.

In answering the question put by my colleague Mr. Albrecht, you have read the section where it is mentioned that the employer can fire someone for “any other reason”. I know that migrant workers have no protection and will not complain for fear of losing their job and being sent home. In this situation, there is certainly a risk that these people do not receive fair wage for the work they are doing. Thus it would be essential to establish fair and equitable rules for these workers, given the fact that we need them in Canada. It is not as if they were not needed. If there are agreements between countries, it is certainly because we have a need for them.

So if I understood correctly, one of your objectives is to enable these people to obtain some documents to make sure they are respected in terms of their work.

[Veena Verma]

I'm sorry. Was there a question?

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

It's all a question of respect.

[Veena Verma]

Yes.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

If we need those employees to work in different industries in Canada, we should be able to give to them some respect, but they should have some legislation in place to make sure they are not persecuted or whatever. This is the main part, I think, of what you asked us. It's to make sure that we put in place some framework so that those persons will not be persecuted and so that they will receive fair wages and have a fair chance to complain also.

[Veena Verma]

Absolutely, and that's the problem. Currently any complaint means they're on the next plane back home. If you look at agricultural workers and live-in caregivers, once they are fired, or once an employer decides the person is no longer wanted, they lose their income and the roof over their head. They stay on the employer's property. While the work permit may say they can stay in Canada legally for two months, if the employer decides to arbitrarily terminate that employment, they have lost their housing and their response is typically to get on the next plane and go home. They have no place else to go.

We need a transparent dispute resolution mechanism tailored to address the concerns and conditions of temporary foreign workers in Canada. The current legal system and complaint processes don't work for these workers, given the conditions under which they come into Canada. We need to think of a structure whereby they can raise those complaints and have those working conditions fixed. Respect is a big thing. It's the number one complaint I hear from all workers.

Francisco Rico, who is with the FCJ Refugee Centre, may also have some comments.

[Francisco Rico-Martinez, Co-Chair, Working Group on Inland Protection, Canadian Council for Refugees]

Perhaps the solution, in terms of stability and integration, is full status in Canada. We bring people in on a temporary basis. When we bring individuals in to work, we are creating social problems here and back home, because we are separating families. It is not possible for a father or mother to integrate in society when one of their main concerns is to bring their family here. They are sending money back. That is the priority in terms of children and everything. Then we ask them to learn English to integrate, to learn our values and everything.

If we need people to work in different sectors, the only way to treat them with respect is to give them full status, so that they don't have to depend on the employer for their status. They should only have to depend on their skills and their rights. Under the Canadian system, the concept of temporary workers was developed some 70 years ago, and the concept hasn't been reviewed since.

We should remove the golden rule of Immigration Canada that you have to apply from outside. Why is this, when people who are already here could apply? If we had programs related to their skills, they could access them when they are in Canada. They wouldn't have to go back to their country and come back with a work permit.

The concept of immigration that we have in Canada goes against the global system, the market, and economic development. This is stopping Canada from having the human resources we need. It is totally against our interests.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We bring these people in who produce and who are good citizens, in a temporary sense. Then we make it so difficult for them to apply that they actually can't. We now allow foreign students to work. This changed only recently. That is a great first step. They work while they're here and get their degree. Then we send them back home and make them reapply. I have heard time and again that in light of the shortage of workers we need to treat people with respect and look at other ways.

You suggested, Ms. Verma, that we don't want to call them illegal. The reality is that what they're doing is illegal, but we need to change the system, so that it's not so difficult for someone to get in to help to produce and contribute to Canadian society. We're talking about trying to make the system easier, as opposed to keeping it as complicated as it is right now. I understand that temporary workers are treated differently. What you're suggesting, I hear loud and clear, is that they be given the respect deserved by those who come to produce and contribute to Canadian society.

Thanks for those comments.

Madame Bonsant.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you.

My question is also addressed to you, Ms. Verma.

In Quebec, we have our own immigration system. Quebec has the right to choose its immigrants. I know some people who have welcomed immigrants from Mexico who came here to work. To accommodate them, these people have learned to speak Spanish. It was thus easier to communicate with them. I hope that in Quebec, these immigrants are treated well.

Have you made comparisons between provinces? Are there provinces where immigrants are not treated as well compared to other provinces? I would like to know about that.

Secondly, I live in a community where we have a French university and an English university. Many young immigrants, new Quebeckers and new Canadians, have landed in our country, but they have degrees that are not recognized by Quebec or Canada. That is a problem for them.

Let me give you the example of a person who studied law in Argentina. In that country, the law is not exactly the same as in Quebec and in Canada. I could also submit the case of a manual worker who works with concrete. Now the concrete that is used in Mexico does not have the same characteristics as the concrete used in Quebec and in Canada, where it is colder. There is a process to be followed. That person has to relearn how to mix the right ingredients.

I believe that the problem is not that of the immigrant who lands in Canada, but rather that of the Canadian consulates that do not give the right information.

When the immigrant is asking to go to Canada, that's all very well, but when he arrives here, he suddenly hits a wall. We cannot give jobs to engineers coming from abroad, because we have to many engineers in Quebec. So we must be careful to choose the right person at the right time for the right job.

Now here is my third question. We are facing a reality, that of religion. We must be mindful of that as well, because some religions have constraints as to the kind of jobs that the people can do. I would like to hear from you on this subject.

I hope that you have understood all three of my questions.

[Veena Verma]

I'm sorry, could you repeat the last question?

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

There is another reality, that of religion. Because some religions impose limitations, be it the Muslim, protestant, catholic, Sikh or any other religion, we must be mindful of some factors that could limit the kind of work that the people can do. I would like to hear you about this issue and I wonder whether you receive a lot of complaints regarding immigrants of the different religious persuasions.

[Veena Verma]

I don't understand the religious constructs affecting people's work. You would have to be much more specific about that. For example, I'm Hindu and Sikh, and I'm not aware of any restrictions that we have. So I don't know of--

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I agree.

In the medical field, for example, a Muslim woman must be examined by a female physician. Physicians who come here from Arabia have not completed the same studies or are not recognized as having exactly the same certification as physicians from Quebec or Canada, because of professional associations. Have you heard complaints of this nature?

[Veena Verma]

No.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

What about you, sir?