Human Resources Committee on Nov. 10th, 2006

[Janis Cousyn]

That was hard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks, Ms. Cousyn.

We're going to move now to Mr. Martin for seven minutes, please.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

Indeed, it's an interesting challenge we have in front of us. We've traditionally been out there trying to create more work and help more people in the workforce, and now we have an economy that seems to be coming at us, that is going to demand more employment, and we're not ready for it, obviously.

We have pools of people we could tap into. We talked about this yesterday in Calgary. A lot of people are eyeing the older generation, and the older generation is saying, “Hang on here, we may not necessarily want to work past 60 or 65. We've done our bit, and we should have good pensions and be able to live in dignity and have a quality of life that doesn't demand that we go back to work. If we want to, so be it, but it should be a top-up.”

We have our aboriginal people, the fastest growing sector of our population, but we haven't been able to find a way to make it easy for them. We find that they're overrepresented in the category that we refer to as poor in our country.

We have disabled people, immigrants, and women.

It seems to me that we need to be working together, and the government has a major role, a lead role, to play in this.

My first question is for the Federation of Labour. It seems to me that the kinds of things you've been doing with the Canadian Labour and Business Centre are exactly tailor-made for this--having labour sit down with business to figure out a way to move forward that will see everybody's needs being met, allow the economy to go as it has the potential, but make sure that all the boats rise so that we don't end up, as is actually happening in some parts of Alberta and Calgary, creating more poor than we're helping.

I know the funding for the Canadian Labour and Business Centre was cut in the last month and that agency is now shut down. Talk to me a bit about the impact of that and why it is that actually we should be doing more of that type of thing.

[Larry Hubich]

We were supporters of the CLBC, and we're disappointed that it became a victim of cuts. While it's certainly not a perfect organization or structure, it did bring the key players to the table. It was the only remaining organization of its kind in Canada that had a Canadian perspective.

Saskatchewan, coincidentally, is the only province in Canada outside of Quebec that continues to have a labour force development board. In Quebec they have the Quebec labour market commission. In Saskatchewan we have the Saskatchewan Labour Force Development Board, which is twelve years old, and we're currently engaged in a process of reinvestment in that board.

Obviously, with any type of an organization that's cross-sectoral, that brings business, labour, and government to the table, you have to continue to reinvest in making sure it works. We had come to the conclusion over twelve years that it was starting to spin its wheels, so we engaged a task force to take a look at the mandate, the role of the board, and to see if we could reinvigorate it. We came to a conclusion that while we may not agree on everything, at least we're in the room together having these dialogues and discussions. We've decided that we're going to reinvent the board. I think that within the very near future you'll see a new body emerge that will be more focused on training, aboriginal employment development, youth engagement, identification of the needs, and trying to match labour with jobs in the future.

You don't put the players in the room together to have that dialogue if you cannot set aside differences and work on areas where you agree. Then you're constantly at loggerheads and constantly in an adversarial environment, and that doesn't serve anyone. In a modern, sophisticated society, as we have, we need to work together on some of these very difficult issues we're confronted with, not the least of which is this looming labour shortage that both business and labour are dealing with--small, medium, or large, it doesn't matter. We need to identify areas where we can work together.

That's why we're so disappointed that the CLBC became one of the victims of the cuts. They were engaged in something that they were just starting, called the workplace partners panel. They did it in maritime Canada, and it brought business and labour together. They did a second phase in Saskatchewan, which they just finished. They were going to move to Manitoba and do one there, and they became victims of the cuts.

They're industry-driven. They're chaired by co-chairs from business and labour, with the support of government. They may need to be refined, and we may need to take a look at how they're structured and work to make sure they're relevant in dealing with what it is they need to deal with, but to sacrifice them is a mistake, and we think there needs to be a reinvestment by government in that.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Is there a way with this organization, particularly the one that's still operating in Saskatchewan, to broaden the tent? I've met over the last two nights with the poverty activist groups, people in the community who are concerned about poverty--as a matter of fact, in Calgary, with the labour council, in partnership with the professional association of social workers, who sponsored the event. Last night it was the national anti-poverty organizations. They see this coming at them and most of them are seeing it more as, “Duck, so it doesn't kill you”, as much as “Here's an opportunity.” So it seems to me that somebody needs to bring those folks into the tent to talk about ways to change that so they actually see it as a good thing that would help them out.

Also, for small business like Ms. Cousyn's here today.... I know that oftentimes when we think of labour and business, it's usually big business and organized labour. There's lots of labour out there that isn't organized, unfortunately. Is there any way to bring into the tent some of the labour that Ms. Cousyn needs, or her organization, so that issue can be addressed as well?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Very quickly. That's all the time.

[Larry Hubich]

I was looking at your agenda for this afternoon, and, coincidentally, two of the organizations that will be presenting before you are members of the Saskatchewan Labour Force Development Board. The Canadian Federation of Independent Business, Saskatchewan branch, Marilyn Braun-Pollon, sits on the existing board, and PIND, the Provincial Interagency Network on Disability. But we've also got on our board racialized Canadians, women, low-income, and so on. In the restructured board, it will be more like the Quebec model, which has seats on that board.... It's a bit higher level. It brings together CEOs representing chamber and other organizations that are most reflective of business. Then there will be spots on that board for what's called “the social economy”. This includes low-income, poverty groups, racialized Canadians and so on. Then there will be a structure established to reach out into those communities, sort of a hub and spoke, to get input around issues that are relevant for that particular sector. So we're going to continue to keep the channels open. At least, that's our hope.

Obviously, you can do that. It's simply that your board at some point becomes unmanageable because it's too large. And that's one of the things that we found with the SLFDB. It was kind of spinning its wheels because it was trying to be all things to all people. As a result, there was an identification that we need to focus it a bit more on labour force development and put mechanisms and vehicles in place to ensure that there's a voice or a vehicle or a conduit into that board for groups that may not have someone sitting at that table. But it's possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks very much.

Mr. Martin, you always get just over time and you get that little zinger in there just before we move on to our next questioner.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

It's so exciting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Everyone needs to be organized.

Ms. Yelich, seven minutes, please.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Without going into too much detail, the focus of literacy has changed somewhat. It's more hands-on. I was looking back at where some investments will be made in this refocusing of our literacy programs. The cuts that were made aren't really cuts. They're really being refocused, and we're cutting to the advocacy groups. So I don't know if that will really affect your group, the Labour Congress, that much. In fact, with the new spending focus it should actually enhance what you want to do, and that's more hands-on. We're talking about enhanced language training, essential skills and workplace literacy, workplace skills initiative, aboriginal elementary and secondary education programs, computers for schools, and adult education skills development. So the money is simply being delivered more at the skills level instead of to advocacy organizations.

I'm not sure if you've really looked into where your cuts will affect your group, but I think perhaps you might be interested to know that there is going to be a lot of money for your focused group, the workplace skills and training.

I was wondering, Ms. Cousyn.... You really speak for probably a lot of varieties of businesses. I don't even know how you could suggest what we could do that works with perhaps a labour group. Is there something you see there that should be...? When you hear their presentations, some of the things they're doing, would you like to be at their table? Are there ways that you think you can try to get...? I found it interesting that you feel there is not enough initiative on the disabled groups, or nobody is there bringing it together. Do you see where this should happen, how this should happen, who should...?

[Janis Cousyn]

Changing the mentality of such an adversarial approach from business to labour would be helpful. I don't know if we'll ever quite get there, but big business represents a lot.

In Saskatchewan, the community of entrepreneurs is a community of small businesses. There are a lot of people, and we're so busy running our businesses and trying every day to keep our heads above water that there's not a lot of time to spend at forums like this. In terms of sitting at a table and working out ideas and programs, I'm certainly more than willing, but, again, there are limitations on your time and on your energy. Looking at what we're facing and us filling in on a daily basis, we can't get people in to do the work.

I was just actually reflecting on one of the programs we worked with to bring a disabled worker into our kitchen. I think the program was SEARCHs , and we've worked with them a few times. Eventually, we did need to let this individual go, because they only give a support system to train the person into the position. It got to a point where she was a fantastic little worker and we liked her—she was very pleasant—but she just couldn't keep up with the pace. We needed to have basically one or two other people there with her in order for her to do the job that normally one person could do. The business itself just cannot support that level of cost in order to keep such a disabled worker employed. If there were systems or if that subsidy, for example, were to be continued, she'd likely still be with us.

There are a lot of things like that. The fact that the trade school has a waiting list is beyond ridiculous to me. We don't have people to work in our industry...[Technical difficulty—Editor].... They want to get into it.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Did you ever hear from some of those you've lost to Alberta, to the oil sands, in that they would like to come back? [Technical difficulty—Editor]

The new government had announced apprenticeships. Would that help you in the training that you specified? It had to be red-sealed, so I'm not sure if....

[Janis Cousyn]

I just don't think it's enough. For the people who are giving their time and their expertise to train the next generation of workers, there are not enough benefits accruing to them. We're doing it because we care about what we do. We love what we do. We love our trade. But financially, the benefits to be replacing.... We're basically our own little trade school in our kitchen, but what are we getting? What is the government giving back to us? Nothing.

We sponsor people to go and challenge the exams. We pay, ourselves, our of our pocket, because we care about it. These workers will stay with us for awhile, but in our trade they need to see other restaurants. They need to move in order to continue to expand. We're not going to have these people in our kitchen forever. That's not the point. But there should be recognition for the people who are doing that.

Five or six or I don't know how many young cooks have challenged the exam from working in our kitchen. You don't get the top...[Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I would just like to mention as well that I thought your presentation was well researched too, Ms. Gunia.

I want to go back to the question I asked about whether you have heard from many of these people who have moved to the oil sands.There's a huge issue with housing out there, and what we're hearing in Alberta as well is that they would like us to provide affordable housing because of what's happening. Then you'd find yourself in even more competition, wouldn't you? I'm hearing that a lot of people prefer to come back to this province because of what you talked about.

[Janis Cousyn]

The people we've lost to the oil patch don't want to be there, they want to be here. They want to be bakers, they don't want to be.... They want to do the work they love to do.

These people are there for the money, and they're there for the money only. Our industry cannot compete with that. We can't even attempt to. In Saskatchewan we can't even compete with the wages they're paying at McDonald's in Alberta. Our young people are hitting the road, and that's where they're going. We just are not going to have the bodies to fill the jobs.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That concludes our first round. We're going to move to our second round, which will be five minutes of questions and answers.

We realize, Ms. Cousyn, that you may have to leave at some point. We want to thank you for being here today.

Mr. Regan, five minutes, please.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cousyn, I can tell you that while the problem is probably nowhere more acute than Saskatchewan and perhaps British Columbia, we're hearing about this problem right across the country, including certainly in my province of Nova Scotia.

A few months ago, I talked to a fellow who's an excavator operator and who'd just come back from working six or eight weeks I think in Alberta. He and his wife were considering moving there for the last five working years of his life because he was making three times as much there as he was in Nova Scotia. So it's a problem that is spreading more and more across the country.

I'm sorry Ms. Yelich left, because she was talking about literacy, and I want to move to that for a second. She was saying that they're not actually cutting. Of course, we know that they're spending $17.7 million less on literacy. The minister said in fact, in the early weeks after the cuts were announced, that they weren't going to be funding advocacy and lobbying, which is how they described the work of the national, regional, and provincial organizations in the literacy area.

However, contrary to what she said--I think she's mistaken about this--last Wednesday there was a conference call from the Department of Human Resources to literacy groups, to the provincial and national and regional organizations, that we're going to let you apply now, and we're going to consider your applications that you put in by September 15, the deadline.

It's not a situation where they're now saying that they're just cutting advocacy or lobbying--if in fact those groups could be properly described as doing advocacy and lobbying only, which they can't, in my view. They are in fact now saying that it's still $17.7 million cut, but we aren't necessarily cutting people involved in these national and regional groups that are doing this so-called lobbying and advocacy.

I want to ask particularly the Federation of Labour about the kind of literacy work you're doing. My impression is that it's labour-sponsored, so government money is not involved. Or was there money from the national literacy strategy for that?

Other than that, what are you seeing and hearing in the literacy field as a result of these cuts?

[Larry Hubich]

We have a number of different literacy initiatives. We get a grant from the provincial government to cover some of them. We have applied, under the auspices of the SLFDB, for money available through the federal government under HRSDC and other grants.

Most of them are workplace-based. Oftentimes they're peer-delivered. In other words, you may have a group of workers out in Swift Current, Saskatchewan, who work in grain handling and transportation. We do workplace training and train the trainers to deliver workplace-based training.

First, with that kind of work, the employer is giving time off; two, the union in many cases is assisting in the training of the workplace peer trainers; and three, the funding is coming through a variety of mechanisms, through direct investment by the employer, investment by the union, or investment by the federal or provincial government. Obviously, when one of those pieces falls off, or one of those partnership funding arrangements falls off, then the others are left to pick up the slack, or else the training initiative becomes vulnerable to no longer existing since it doesn't have in place the necessary funding to make that occur.

We do believe the loss of $17.7 million in literacy-based training will have an impact on initiatives in Saskatchewan. I'm not the expert in this field; we have people at the federation who are dedicated solely and exclusively to workplace essential skills training and literacy. We haven't yet seen what is being proposed to replace it. Obviously we'll pursue that.

So we do see significant cuts. If there are pieces in place that replace that adequately, we're not aware of those. Perhaps we need to do some....

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Early on it seemed that there was at least some degree of clarity in understanding where these cuts were focused. I'm not sure there would be enough going to all those regional and national groups to cover that whole amount, $17.7 million, so they had to go beyond that, in my view. However, now they're saying, in fact, to those groups: yes, we've changed our position on this; we're going to let you fly and will consider your stuff. Really it's not clear at all now where that $17.7 million is being cut, and it sounds as if it's everywhere. It could be anywhere within the literacy system, and that's very worrisome.

But let me ask you....

My time is up already? Five minutes goes quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Yes, thank you.

Monsieur Lessard, vous avez cinq minutes, s'il vous plaît.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

When it comes to literacy, we need to be clear. I think that our friend Ms. Yelich from the Conservative Party, gave us an accurate account of what is being targeted. It's true that organizations are being targeted, and not programs, but at the end of the day, that's tantamount to targeting every program.

Who puts these programs together? Who submits these projects to government? The organizations do. Who supports these projects? The organizations do. Who brings these projects to fruition? The organizations do. What's being targeted? Savings far in excess of $17 million is what is being targeted: they want to put an end to these programs.

An analogy may be made with the restaurant industry. When you announce you're going to make staff cutbacks, and maintain that your food will be just as good because you'll continue to buy good products, well if you have no one to put together the menu, if you have no one left to prepare a service project or to recruit staff, your clientele will run a mile. It's exactly the same, in my opinion.

Fortunately, Aboriginal groups often come back to this issue. And I think that it's time we made it our business to seek out this segment of the labour force. Would I be making an accurate appraisal of the situation were I to say that these workers should be adequately prepared before they arrive on the labour market? This is a segment of the labour force which has been sidelined and which, in my opinion, doesn't have the same work culture as White people. They have a work culture, but it's not the same. So don't you think a program should be developed in order to prepare Aboriginal workers for the labour market, and its various sectors?

[Janis Cousyn]

Absolutely. This is something we need to do in Saskatchewan. I think that we need to work with the leaders of this community so they also realize this is important for the future and that getting their community members into the workforce is problematic. At the same time, it's clear there is a major discrepancy between how healthy their community members are in Saskatchewan when compared to the health of those people living in more affluent communities. We need to start preparing these people; they're the ones who will help us, in our industry.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Indeed, there's a substantial human resource available there. I agree.

I would like to direct my next question to the Saskatchewan Federation of Labour, and you can add to their answer, if you so desire.

The current economic boom in Alberta is largely thanks to the oil industry. We know that there are many workers who have left Saskatchewan for Alberta. Has the federation analyzed the future impact of its boom as far as the price of gas is concerned?

Let me make myself clear. I think that analysts have said that should the price of a barrel of oil sold below the $60 mark for any length of time, Alberta would be in trouble. Fortunately, Alberta is currently reaping the rewards of this boom because the price of a barrel of oil remains well above the $60 mark. Have you looked at the impact this situation may have from a labour force standpoint in the future? That couldn't be sustained.