Human Resources Committee on Nov. 10th, 2006

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I was just wondering if that would be a solution to some of your shortages, to have foreign workers come into Canada.

[Ken McKinlay]

We've sat down with our immigration department in Saskatchewan and tried to look at opportunities. We're watching Manitoba. They were very successful in the Ukraine, I think it was, in getting people into Manitoba and into the housing industry. You really have to pick and choose--good old Saskatchewan, welcome to our winters--what types of immigrants you bring in. We don't shut down in housing any more than maybe for a week a year. Our guys are out there.

So immigration is not the priority on our list right now. It's more--

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Before I wrap up, and to give Mr. Hanley an opportunity to speak as well, I'd like to ask if any of you have, from your observation, some model industry or company in Saskatchewan that can be looked at. I'm going to do the lead here a little bit, because I do know that in northern Saskatchewan our mining industries are, I think, doing very well with our aboriginal communities. I think there can be something learned from their example, that I can take back to Ottawa.

Cut can you help us by building on that?

[Mark Hanley]

No doubt about it, the industry you've just raised has done an exceptionally good job. They did that through specific agreements with the Province of Saskatchewan, as you know, to hire a specific level of aboriginal people in their northern mining industry. That was all done through a contractual agreement with the government that goes back many decades. It's been very effective.

Similarly, the casino gaming industry in Saskatchewan has been extremely effective in terms of hiring aboriginal people and retaining them. In fact, the industry has a retention rate that's higher than the national or international retention rate for that industry in North America.

So there have been effective practices put together there to cement the labour force. Those are entry-level services jobs, for the most part, and they use internal systems, training on the job, in the casino gaming industry to move people and advance them throughout the workforce.

It's all about removal of barriers for aboriginal people to participate. It's all about significant investment by employers in making sure that aboriginal employees not only can be hired but can be retained and promoted. On the mining side, I think they've done an admirable job of training.

But there are some other highlights that can be addressed here as well. Our health care industry has a much higher level now of aboriginal employment than it did have even five years ago. There have been very significant wins there because of the partnership between labour and the employer. CUPE and other health care unions have been extremely motivated to bring more aboriginal people into the labour market. They've done a very good job of using well-known techniques, tried and true, in terms of barrier removal.

For example, in the health care industry, I know they've trained well in excess of 15,000 people in aboriginal cultural issues, removing barriers to the general understanding of the public in aboriginal cultural issues and racism. When those things are done, they work, and they're inexpensive.

So you have three examples there of industries where those things have been effective.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll have to save further comment for the second round.

I've been a bit more flexible in the first round--all of you have had more than seven minutes--but we're running close to time. I want to make sure everyone gets a final round of five minutes, so we're going to be a little bit tighter on time this time around.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Oh, oh, I need half an hour, and all I'm going to get is five minutes.

I was just thinking about how when I was a kid, my mother encouraged me to read, and I did read, W.O. Mitchell's book Jake and the Kid. My mother was from Medstead, Saskatchewan, by the way; no wonder she wanted to encourage me to do that. At any rate, I remember reading that one winter it was so cold that the jackrabbits were frozen in mid-air. I'm getting a sense of that today, I think, outside.

That leads me to the question of housing, Mr. Hanley. You're obviously in the food bank movement. What do you think are the key things the Government of Canada should be doing to increase the stock of affordable housing or to increase the renovation, and quality, of housing?

[Mark Hanley]

I am certainly no expert. I'm an amateur in this regard.

My view is that affordable housing is critical. There have been some extremely good activities through partnerships with CMHC and, in our case, Saskatchewan Housing Corporation that have proven to be very effective. I do have some experience in that area; I don't want to get into it, because there is not enough time here.

Working with the private sector in looking at upgrades that are required to improve our housing stock for low-income families is very important. There have been some very good programs. I know of a couple of them myself because I've participated in them as an apartment building owner. Those are very good. The affordable housing program that Saskatchewan and the federal government have cost-shared in our province has been very effective. Ken probably knows a good deal more about it than I do.

There have been impediments in terms of inculcating that type of vision into, say, the aboriginal sector and on-reserve and off-reserve housing for first nations people, but for the most part those have been related to cost of construction and things like that; the rapidly rising costs of construction are creating impediments.

I think more of that is a good thing--more coordination, more horizontality, making it easier for the private sector and others to understand that these tools can be very useful.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

We've heard about housing as an issue related to employability because it is one of the barriers people have. If they don't have good-quality affordable housing and homes, it is a problem for them to be going to work every day.

Mr. McKinlay, obviously I should ask you about this question as well, if you have a thought on it. You were asked about the 40 aboriginals who were placed. Maybe you were already asked why, and you mentioned discrimination in one case, but were there other reasons? Could you give other examples of why those did not work out?

[Ken McKinlay]

Most were, I think, the realization of how hard they had to work on our sites. They just didn't turn up. They just disappeared and did not return to work. That was the majority.

In dealing with affordable housing, I think we have to get innovative. We have some good visionary people. As an industry association, we got stakeholders together and did some brainstorming and set up some affordable housing consultants. They have been floating a lot of different ideas. I think the government needs to get out there and really look at other opportunities.

The problem is that you have to invest a lot of capital. We used to mortgage stuff for 35 years. That was a nightmare to manage. You need to put your dollars in, try to realize what you can, and keep going as you can afford to go.

The effort really has been to get the borderline individuals, the low-income earners who are at peak level, to be homeowners. You buy down the price of the home with your capital and give them a mortgage they can handle. They become homeowners and can look after their product. They have a nice new home; they can keep it in good condition. You have some support systems there to make sure they understand the maintenance of a home.

We can do further things. Why wouldn't the federal government go into partnership on the land value of the home, instead of purchasing the land and putting it on a mortgage and then trying to buy it? Why not also look at how government could be a joint owner with that person on that land for that value of land? Then if it's sold, your portion is $40,000 out of $100,000 or whatever, and if there is inflation on the house when it's sold, then the government gets a percentage back, right?

There are a lot of innovative ways governments can take a share without having to really pour too much in up front. I think there is an opportunity to do further research and look ahead at this issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. McKinlay. That's all the time we have.

We'll move to Mr. Lessard for five minutes, please.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I have no objections whatsoever to my colleague Mr. Regan taking an additional five minutes, for the sake of fairness. I don't usually ask this kind of question, but I think we can allow it since Mr. Martin was allowed 13 minutes, and Ms. Yelich, 12 minutes. As for Mr. Regan, he only had six and a half minutes. I don't have a problem giving him five more minutes, Mr. Chairman. That means that I would also have five more minutes, just like everyone else had.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Don't worry. You get an extra five minutes all the time.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

But Mr. Regan didn't get any additional time.

If he doesn't want more time, then I will have 10 additional minutes.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I did have one more question.

I want to thank my honourable colleague for arranging for me to have one or two additional minutes.

My question is about literacy. This morning Larry Hubich, of the Saskatchewan Federation of Labour, said that literacy is a barrier to completing apprenticeships. That's one of the things he's seeing. Can you tell us about your experience in that regard?

I don't know if Mr. McKinlay or Mr. Hanley wants to speak about that.

[Mark Hanley]

There's no question that literacy is an issue for the future of the Saskatchewan labour market and our workforce. As I said earlier, the international standards for adjudicating literacy skills have rated Saskatchewan's overall literacy level at quite a high level, but they've also commented on the large number of people we have who are at low literacy levels. At the high end of the literacy scale, Saskatchewan exceeds national standards, but at the low level it also exceeds national acceptability. I'm not an absolute expert on these numbers, but I just remember them off the top of my head.

Yes, there is a need for us to invest more heavily in literacy. We cannot move forward and bring into the labour market those people whom both Bev and Ken spoke of, and who are perhaps now marginalized, without improving their literacy skills. And we think there's a strong connection—and research has shown this—between improving literacy skills and the ability of community-based organizations to deliver that as part of a modality or as a strategy for increasing labour market attachment.

So yes, I can say that, but I'm sure that's true in every province in the country. It's truer here, though, because we have a larger number of people....

And this was something Mr. Regan mentioned earlier too. Mobility is a critical issue in Saskatchewan, particularly with our aboriginal labour force. A couple of years ago, I did a study for the Saskatchewan government on the labour force attachment characteristics of young aboriginal people in Regina, Saskatoon, and Winnipeg. Mobility is really, truly one of the critical issues that affect that. I'd be happy to supply that information to you if you'd like to see it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Mr. Lessard, thank you for giving up some of your time to Mr. Regan. Five minutes, please.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I appreciate the subtlety, Mr. Chairman.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Getting back to your initial comment, Mr. Hanley, in your opening statement, you talked about labour market planning, about developing a labour market strategy in order to have a vision of accessibility in the future, about the type of labour market and who will be a part of that market, and about productivity.

I was a little surprised to hear you say that no strategic planning has been done. Yet, we've had national programs, including the Labour-Management Partnership Program, a victim of recent budget cuts. Agencies operate in each region.

Are you saying that despite the agencies and programs in place, no strategy has been planned or developed?

[Mark Hanley]

I'm not certain that I fully understand your question, but let me comment on what I said.

This comes as no surprise to anyone, because I think it's also true in many other provinces, but we lack a coordinating strategic body in Saskatchewan to help us plan the supply and demand issues for our labour market. Our training institutions, right from the primary, through the secondary, to the post-secondary levels, to the trades and training organizations, have operated in a manner that has not been entirely well coordinated, and I think that's typical of other jurisdictions too.

We've really had no effective strategy for how industry, in particular, is going to lead. As Mr. McKinlay said, to give an example, industry has been saying to government that there is an enormous shortage of trades in the home building industry. How are we going to reconcile the need to train people through the existing system of training for skilled trades and our apparent lack of the ability to produce those in the right place at the right time?

I'm not saying to you that Saskatchewan's advanced education and employment are not dealing with this. They are, and one of the strategic outcomes of that is to develop a new Saskatchewan labour market commission. I think that view is supported by not only the Government of Saskatchewan, but by opposition parties. So there's some cohesion around that idea. That's really what I meant by a lack of strategy.

Alberta, for example, within the last year has completed a strategic plan for its labour market and has gone out to stakeholders all over the province. I saw an input from them and talked to them about the strategic plan that the government developed. Saskatchewan is now in the throes of doing that, from what I understand from speaking with senior government officials about it. So part of that is the concept I'm promoting, along with the Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce and the Saskatchewan Federation of Labour, in a document I tabled with you earlier about our strategic Saskatchewan labour market commission organization.

I hope I've answered your question.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Yes, you've answer the question.

The committee will be making some recommendations and as such, we need to ensure that the government takes up the slack by creating agencies or by assigning to existing ones responsibility for implementing measures to be decided on by the government. One initiative, the Labour-Management Partnership Program, was recently abolished. To my mind, some initiatives were already in place.

You stated that a coordinated effort was needed to advise government and government officials on labour market development. I'm trying to see how, from a practical standpoint -- because you're also practical individuals -- this can be accomplished. It's almost as if the outcome is inevitable. The will exists to act, but almost inevitably, fate conspires to stop any further progress. Yet, heaven knows that your national organizations work hard, make representations and even come to lobby officials in Ottawa. It's as if they come up against a wall.

What needs to be done to break through that wall? The questions is directed primarily to the two of you, but if any of your colleagues want to comment, by all means they should feel free to do so.

[Mark Hanley]

To put it in its broadest possible sense, the opportunity is through goodwill. We think there is a strong vote. Saskatchewan is the only province in Canada that has the remnants of a Saskatchewan labour force development board. Many years ago, a labour force development board existed in all provinces, but that vehicle didn't seem to be a particularly effective tool. The old Saskatchewan Labour Force Development Board had some very good early successes and did some extremely good work, but it was ready for revitalization. Revitalization along the lines of the apparent realities of our current economy and our supply-demand issues was absolutely necessary. The government and industry, working together, have taken that and made it a reality.

How that syncs with the federal side will remain to be seen, but I want to tell you that, from what I have seen, our stakeholders seem to be on top of that. We're seeking to work as closely as we can with our federal counterparts to make sure there's some coordination there, because after all, significant funding flows to the provinces from HRSDC and others that deal with this issue.

With respect to marginalized workers, there is funding that flows from various departments of the federal government. I'm not fully aware of all of them, but they all need to have a coordinated approach to how you are going to deal with these issues of barriers to labour market participation of these marginalized workers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're almost out of time. I know Mr. Lessard has been helping me keep track of time. I appreciate that.

We're going to move to Mr. Martin, who has a couple—

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I want equal treatment, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I've been keeping track of your time. You've been getting the same amount of time. We've been very flexible here with this small committee.

Mr. Martin just has a couple of questions. We are almost out of time, but then we'll just go to Ms. Yelich for a couple of quick questions.