Human Resources Committee on Nov. 10th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. McKinlay, I need a quick response, because we're out of time. If we can get an answer to the question, that would be great.

[Ken McKinlay]

It's a big area to try to respond to.

Saskatchewan has what's called Construction Careers Saskatoon.It's also in Regina and Prince Albert, I think. They have aboriginal job coaches to prepare their clients to understand the jobs they're going to. It has worked very well in the commercial industry. You have a large project at one location, and you can hire four or five aboriginals so they at least have a relationship with their own people on that site.

The residential system is a problem. We send one person to this framing crew employer and one person there. On site, they're the only aboriginal, and that creates too much friction. So we're now trying to reassess the residential program.

We're going to have to find different ways, but there are established vehicles. Yesterday I was at a multi-sector meeting. They're looking at trying to set up systems across the province where the food banks are. The skills training development needs to happen for these people so they really understand the expectations when they come to the job.

In residential, we are piecework oriented. The job has to get done. It's not sit-around time; it's work time. I think we have vehicles. Hopefully we can find solutions to make it work, but industry has to get to the table. We're trying to do that with the residential program.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Lessard.

We're going to move to Mr. Martin. Seven minutes, sir.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to come at this from a slightly different perspective. We have this very challenging economic wave coming at us that in some instances we're in the middle of. It has the potential to be very exciting and positive. It also has the potential to swamp a lot of people, to destroy things. I think the challenge, and government has to be centrally involved, is how to get this wave to lift all the boats.

All of the reports that have come out in the last six months that I've read indicate that in this country we have poverty that's growing deeper and more pervasive. I was in Victoria recently, and I was in Calgary just the other night, and I'm seeing homelessness like I've never seen before. There's an interesting dynamic there. I also read yesterday in the newspaper that in Saskatoon, this poverty is actually costing in terms of health care; poverty makes you sick.

I think we have a chance here to actually do some pretty interesting and exciting things. Other jurisdictions around the world have done it differently and taken advantage of it. Earlier we mentioned Ireland, where they gathered everybody around the table and asked how over the next five years they could make sure that absolutely everybody was identified and that a plan was made to include them in the economy. It's the right thing to do, first, but more importantly, the economy needs them. We need to make sure that we provide people--disabled people, aboriginal people, women, new immigrants--with the opportunity to participate in some way.

I don't want to be overly partisan here, but I note the cuts recently to the volunteer sector. You talked about some of the work you're doing out of your food bank, wearing your food bank hat, and the cuts to the social economy, which are not helpful, in my view, particularly as we try to be creative and find new ways to include some of these folks who are difficult to engage.

Do you have any thoughts on how we might be more creative there?

I was a member of the Ontario Parliament in the early nineties, when we brought in a very comprehensive employment equity plan. It was working, particularly for the disabled. In my own community, many disabled people were accommodated. They were working into the system. Then we had a change of government in 1995. Mike Harris came in and did away with the employment equity plan, did away with all of the government vehicles that were there to try to help business and industry and community actually do what was required. I then found a big lineup of disabled people at my door. They had been lifted up and led to believe there was something there for them, and then, poof, they were dropped on their heads.

So how do we do this, and how do we do this in a sustainable way?

[Ken McKinlay]

I'm glad you're in your position and governments have to....

Health all relates to housing, the health of the community. Working with the City of Regina affordable housing committee, under the mayor and with Saskatoon...when you hear that in one of our communities the fire department inspects the rental houses, no wonder people have health problems. The housing rental stock in some areas is not fit for those people, and it compounds the problem when their health is affected.

I think there has to be government handout dollars for people to rent a product. They're always worried about taking away that person's right to decide whether they want that piece of property to rent. I don't think we should worry about that right. I think it's society's responsibility to make sure that product has some type of standard for a healthy living exposure for the kids who are in there, who are on social dollars. Cities are trying to do this, but boy, we need more people to do it.

Of course, governments have to make sure the stock is there to be developed, as we get rid of older stock. Some of this stuff should just be torn down. It's really on the affordable housing side of things that we have a massive shortage. Unfortunately, we now have an economy where it's costing so much for government to put another unit out in the marketplace to satisfy need. It's a big problem. It's going to take years and years to try to build that stock.

I think the Province of Saskatchewan does allow people on assistance to go out and work without having their assistance cut back, so they are accommodating some way of trying to encourage people back into the workforce. That type of stuff is good. Things like that should be encouraged. If you have people on social welfare, they need support systems, skills development systems, not a tax system that attacks them as soon as they start making a buck somewhere else. They need some easing into the system to get them fully employed, things like that.

As you said, we all have to get together and get a plan. If we know what the problem is in another industry and what it is in ours, we can work together to maybe find a common answer and move ahead with our economy. You're absolutely right.

[Mark Hanley]

You've asked some very complex questions, obviously. I know that you know that.

You've heard from us about how people can organize and work together, where industry can develop a joint approach. I've suggested to you that it's very important to look at it from the point of view of marginalized individuals, including aboriginal workers, for example. I have a broad-based practice in working on labour market issues as they affect aboriginal people in particular.

I talked to you earlier about a single-window entry system, horizontality--which is incredibly important--and funding stability, and investments. We're in a position in the west in particular such that most of our governments have a large amount of money in surpluses they are accumulating and they are able to spend some of that money to improve the social conditions that exist in our communities.

In Saskatchewan, as I'm sure all of you know--particularly Mrs. Yelich, because you're a member from here--solving the problems that Mr. McKinlay and Bev have alluded to, for example, may not be within our power to do, just because of the demographics. If we employed all the aboriginal people in our province who could be employed at the same rate as non-aboriginal people are employed, and if we employed all the disabled people in our province at the same rate as non-disabled people are employed, we would still have a shortage of workers. We'd still have a supply-demand gap. So this is a larger problem we're talking about.

If we're speaking about the future and about our lack of ability as a province to solve the problem of bringing aboriginal young people into the mainstream of our economy through training and education--and we do have a very large structural problem doing that in Saskatchewan, as you know--then we have to look at what the best way to invest is.

One of the things that have been done very successfully here in Saskatchewan to invest in the marginalized aboriginal worker is a program called the Saskatchewan aboriginal employment development program, which is funded by the Saskatchewan first nations and Métis relations department. That program has provided in excess of 2,500 linkages to employment and direct jobs for aboriginal people. These have been lasting jobs and they've been created through the removal of barriers. It has been very cost-effective to do this. The cost of this type of intervention is less than a quarter to perhaps an eighth of that of other types of direct intervention by governments.

Some of these things work. We're not spending enough money on them. We're not focusing enough on the wins. I see our relationship with the federal government in terms of--taking off my professional hat and putting on my volunteer hat--social agencies in our communities. These are very large social agencies. The food bank in Regina has the largest client base of any non-government or community-based organization in our province. We're not talking about small organizations. We're talking about 10,000 members in our community service village, for example.

You can have an opportunity to bring those people into the labour market. You have to spend money on enhancing their skills. Additionally, Saskatchewan has a labour market that has a fairly high rating in terms of the IALSS skills registry--I've forgotten the exact terminology, but I'm sure you're familiar with the IALSS skill analysis that is done on an international basis--but we have too many people in our economy who need to be moved from one level of skills to another, say a level 2 skill, which is a literacy-based skill, to a level 3 skill, with which people can work independently.

How are you going to do that? You need to invest in that sector, and things need to be targeted. We need much more strategic thinking, and we need much more investment on a targeted basis to solve those problems. Even if we do all of those things, we will still need to develop a strategy around immigration that's better focused. I know those things are being worked on, but it takes time.

We need horizontality with the feds, and we need a significant level of strategic coordination, funding stability, and a single-window entry system so that we can work on these things together.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Hanley.

We're way over time, but I know Ms. Duncan wanted to add a comment before we move to Ms. Yelich.

[Bev Duncan]

Thank you.

What I wanted to pick up on is that we have to provide incentives for people to go into low-paying entry jobs. When they're going from social assistance to a low-paying entry job, we certainly can't take away their supplements. As I had alluded to before, if someone goes into a low-paying job, their supplements are automatically taken away. As a result of social services guaranteeing a housing deposit, now they have to come up with a housing deposit. They have to come up with their back power, or whatever it is that they owe. If you have a mental illness, and part of your mental illness is caused by stress, then how much stress is put on you by all of these people suddenly coming to you and saying, pay up or you're out?

So we need to have some kind of transitional way of getting people from social services to lower-paying jobs, so they can get into the workforce in a meaningful manner and not have them go through all of that stress. This is something that we really have to look at, including supplements for medication. You can't take people off their health care supplements. I would say you have to do benchmarks in order to do this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Duncan.

We've certainly heard that before as well. As people try to move up the scale, or move to better themselves, the challenge is always that they lose all their supports, which they need at the other level.

Ms. Yelich, for seven minutes, please.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

We have to speak to our provinces about that, but yes, the welfare wall is certainly in existence.

Ms. Duncan, I want to ask you specifically about your saying that you had a program called employer days. What employers did you choose to take this initiative? Did you take disabled people into the employers' premises?

[Bev Duncan]

This was when I lived in Saskatoon. What we did was invite employers to meet an employee. We went right across the employer sector in Saskatoon, and we invited government, non-government, and small and large businesses to this job fair. We had a very good turnout. As a result, we had people with disabilities who could then go into an avenue that they would like to work in. Then they had the opportunity to job shadow for a day or so. The employers were very supportive, and it wasn't a very expensive program, but it certainly worked.

I was just at an FSIN meeting two weeks ago with disability groups. I was asked to organize a workshop here in Saskatoon around people with disabilities who are first nations and Métis, so that we can start working again on getting people out into the community.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I'm going to my next person, but I want to mention—because the previous witness said that she wished there was someone who would coordinate and facilitate more of the disabled community and bring them into their workplaces—that there was a real disconnect. What I understand is that it really doesn't exist. They're begging. This is in the food service industry.

I just wanted to make that point, that perhaps you might have a new job.

[Bev Duncan]

Thanks.

As a comment on that, when National Access Awareness Week was discontinued, Saskatchewan continued on with the Saskatchewan Access Awareness Week. Through our organization, we provide yearly $1,000 scholarships to people who are furthering their education, whether it's in post-secondary, in a job trade, or whatever. We have been doing that for about the last eight years.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I'm glad to hear that.

I also think that in Saskatchewan we should probably be looking into the schools, because regarding integrating disabled persons, they should also be in the higher grades.

Mr. McKinlay, I want to go back to the 40 people who were trained in Regina. They were trained through you, or the government, or apprenticeship programs. I didn't catch exactly what the training program was. They were placed....

[Ken McKinlay]

They were placed in the industry.

The group is through SIIT, the Saskatchewan Indian Institute of Technologies. Through CanSask, they fund these job coaches. The aboriginals would go to that group and identify themselves as wanting to get into work somewhere. The coach would then select an industry, or see what the person feels he would like to do, and then give him some information about what to expect where he's going--a commercial construction site or a residential construction site.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

So they have been trained. They've gone--

[Ken McKinlay]

I'm not saying “trained”.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Up to that point, you've placed them.

And today, we don't know where those 40 people are. They're off the radar.

[Ken McKinlay]

They're off the radar. And those job coaches are now saying that the employable ones have been placed, commercially or somewhere. They didn't stick with our industry, but they're somewhere.

The aboriginal people are now at the level where they definitely need some life skills training to get them up before they start sending them up. Now they're going to need some more support services, and that's I think what Mark is saying about his clientele, that we really need to upgrade a lot of skills before we send them out.

I'm saying that I'm very surprised with the prejudice that is out there. We have homeowners who tell builders, get that person off our site. That's my house, and I don't want him on my site. I can't believe this stuff.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Actually, I can't either.

[Ken McKinlay]

It's just amazing. Where do we start? Yet we have a full team of aboriginal framers, and it is one of our best. I've never heard a comment. But now that a lot of other builders are taking on aboriginals, suddenly they're coming back at us and saying, our customers have some concerns here.

So we have to educate our industry and make sure the public understands that when they're buying that house.... It doesn't matter how it's built, people. We give you the key, and you tell us whether it's done right. Don't tell us who should be out there. If they have the skill, they're going to have to be there.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I wondered if there were any unique-to-Saskatchewan issues on labour, on mobility. For example, province to province, do you see any mobility issues? That is one issue that was brought up, particularly because of B.C. and Alberta coming together and agreeing that labour and mobility would be harmonized. But in Saskatchewan, we haven't done that. Is there anything that affects your industry in particular?

[Ken McKinlay]

We're totally mobile. The problem is that it's always west. It doesn't come back.

But interestingly enough, the Saskatchewan Chamber of Commerce and the Home Builders' Association were involved in a job fair. We went into Alberta, into Calgary, trying to get our tradespeople back, because they were under such pressure--housing pressure costs--and it was a good opportunity to try to draw some of our talent back here. And we're doing that.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

We had people in British Columbia who said that we don't need foreign workers, that we do have indeed skilled workers. This was high steel. They said that they have very good people from Quebec, for example--they're well trained, because Quebec has a very good apprenticeship program--and that foreign workers are something they don't see as a need.

Do you have any comment on that?

[Ken McKinlay]

That industry is outside of our industry, but--