Evidence of meeting #39 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was initiative.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Considering the success of this initiative in Quebec, with over 6,000 enterprises, including over 2,000 cooperatives and nearly 4,000 non-profit organizations, and 65,000 jobs, etc., do you see any reason for not continuing to pursue the same initiatives outside Quebec?
I'm going to have the other two witnesses from each sector give us their comments on this. Mr. LePage, you first.
Program Manager, Enterprising Non-Profits Program
We are pursuing it every day. The program I operate, Enterprising Non-Profits, is a joint partnership of six funders, two foundations, the private sector, as well as the United Way and Western Economic Diversification Canada, to provide enterprise development funds to non-profits across British Columbia.
We've invested in 124 start-ups across the province over the last seven years, investing $750,000. There are private sector partners through the B.C. technology social venture partners who are now investing in the social economy and are looking to have that leverage. The credit unions...the Vancouver City Savings Credit Union is very well known for their investment. This is going on.
What this contribution would have done is really jump-start and scale some issues up. But the social economy is going on and it's successful. What we need is that kind of support to move it to the next level, as they have done in the U.K.
Executive Director, Canadian Co-operative Association
I would just add the comment that certainly there is no good reason why it should not be rolled out. We see the success in Quebec.
If the name “social economy” is a barrier to many Canadians and has a flavour of socialism, which may alienate some Canadians, then I would argue that the community enterprise, which is the same thing as a social enterprise, may be better understood outside of Quebec. So for a rollout in the future, I would suggest a need to perhaps rebrand it so that Canadians don't see it as a barrier, because it's certainly not about socialism.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Certainly there are lots of good organizations that are supported by this, or would be supported by this, and that are involved in the social economy. We can call them volunteer groups, community enterprises, or whatever. The point is, they're doing good work and could do a lot more.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Social Economy Working Group
Again, I would say that what's important to see is that the role of government is leveraging. I think we've seen it in the initiative in Quebec around the fiducie. It's true from the Quebec government's intervention. We see it in other countries as well.
This is an entrepreneurial movement. We are entrepreneurs, and we are going to continue no matter what happens. But it's true with the private sector as well. Governments have always had public policy to support private entrepreneurs, and we feel simply that those kinds of policies should be adapted to support social entrepreneurs. It's the way of the future. It's a way of having less government and a better quality of life, and I think it should appeal to everybody.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you.
And thank you, Mr. Regan.
I'm going to take the next round and maybe just hitchhike on what Mr. Regan was asking and what I think you also mentioned, Mr. LePage.
Mr. Martin proposed that we study this, and I appreciate that, because I certainly was aware of the social economy but not to the extent of what happens with it. So this has been good for me today to hear a bit more about what happens.
Mr. LePage, you talked about return on investment as obviously being something, and Ms. Neamtan mentioned that as well. How do we judge this? How do you figure out what your return on investment is? If there is $1 billion invested, how do you determine whether it's $1 billion or $3 billion? And what are some of the tools you use? We've talked about leverage. It was talked about before.
Maybe Mr. LePage, and then Ms. Neamtan, and then Ms. Hunter, just talk about what kind of leverage we are getting, and how do you measure that? How does that happen?
Program Manager, Enterprising Non-Profits Program
On the leverage, I think some of the simple responses are the number of jobs are created for people such as those Ms. Mennie talked about in The Cleaning Solution who are moving off welfare or out of homelessness, and the youth groups in Saskatoon who are moving away from the criminal system. We can measure those types of things. We can measure the amount of money, the income that the enterprises are doing. As Ms. Mennie mentioned, at VanCity Community Foundation and VanCity Credit Union we actually are working with a group of people, including HRSDC, on creating a better tool that would be more capable of measuring these returns on investments.
There are examples--in the U.K., the new economics foundation, and in the U.S., the Roberts Enterprise Development Fund--that have developed tools, so we can look at best practices and create a Canadian model that's simple for both funders and enterprises to use.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Social Economy Working Group
We already have some indicators, such as obviously the jobs created. We talked about even measuring financially how much less it costs the government when the handicapped or other people are working, as opposed to being at home with government support.
I can give you an example. We set up an investment fund eight years ago with private donations and support from the Quebec government to do small loans to over 300 social enterprises over the past eight years, and the leverage has been nine for one. For every dollar that we have invested in these enterprises, they've been able to get nine times more from private capital, like any other entrepreneurs.
There are different measures, but obviously that's one of the reasons why the research component is important. We have to have better tools--and this is an international question--to be able to measure the return on investment, but we already have a lot of indicators that show this is a good investment.
Executive Director, Canadian Co-operative Association
I would just add, for co-operatives, certainly in terms of our return on investment, we have patronage dividends with co-operatives that recirculate in the community, and you could actually commodify volunteerism of co-operatives with those 75,000 directors that sit on co-op boards. For every little co-op board started, you have volunteers that don't get per diems, and you could commodify that, but I'd agree with Nancy that we need more robust tools to actually measure the ROI, social return on investment.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
I'd just encourage you as you move forward--I think it's probably key--to develop those tools so a government can understand, regardless of who's in power. You are leveraging certainly volunteer hours and some of these other things, and these are good indicators, as governments determine their priorities--what they're going to spend on and where some of that money should go. I appreciate hearing what's happening in the social economy.
We're going to move to Mr. Lessard. We're going to have another round. Mr. Lessard, for five minutes, please.
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
My question is for Ms. Hunter. Budget 2004 allocated $132 million to the social economy initiative in other words $17 million over two years for capacity building, $100 million for the creation of a patient capital fund and $15 million over five years for research on the social economy.
There was also a commitment to improving access for social economy enterprises to government services programs. This project which was developed in 2004 was to have started in 2005-2006. Experience has shown that it did get a start in Quebec, but not elsewhere in the country.
I'm trying to understand how we can deal with the cutbacks of last September 25th. Under the $1 billion cutbacks brought in by the Canadian government, $39.2 million, or practically $40 million, will serve to eliminate unspent funding for social economy programs.
I make these two points as I try to understand the answers we've been given. On the one hand, we see that this project, the social economy initiative, which was to start in 2005 has not yet begun elsewhere in the country. On the other hand, you said earlier on that your organization believes investments need to be made under the job creation initiative, namely for farming enterprises. Forty million dollars of unallocated funds are being cut.
Do you not believe that these $40 million could have been used for initiatives you mentioned earlier on and to begin other projects throughout the country?
Executive Director, Canadian Co-operative Association
Absolutely. One interesting thing would have been to have measured the lost opportunity costs by not rolling out the program. What have we lost by not going forward with a number of initiatives? Clearly, we don't have the instruments to do that measurement, but by not making the investments, by not kick-starting small enterprises that could get started--as Nancy says, it's nine to one in Quebec--if you use the same arithmetic with the leveraging argument, we have a lot of lost opportunities.
I should add, too, that the Nova Scotia Co-op Council had been working with groups in Nova Scotia to create a consortium for the social economy, and they had leveraging of about $30 million from different sources in the Atlantic region, had the social economy rolled out. So one could argue that had it gone forward, if you add that $30 million from other sources, there's a lost opportunity there.
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
Ms. Hunter, when we see, for example that the connections in the social economy are more spontaneous and relaxed between local governments and provincial governments, would it not have been a good idea that the money allocated by the federal government be given to the respective provincial governments so that they could support the projects with the social economy groups, in order to not carry out the $40 million cutbacks whereas the needs are those that you have described?
Executive Director, Canadian Co-operative Association
With other programs, like health care, there's value in having a national policy directive and coordination at a national level but delivery at a provincial level. I would still argue that there is a key role for a federal government to play in a social economy, not just devolving it all to the provinces. You have certain principles with health care that you don't want the governments to just take over.
I would also suggest that the governance structure under the old social economy was cumbersome, with Industry Canada working with the RDAs for the rollout and the policy being done within HRSDC. We've seen some examples, with Ms. Mennie not able to speak to the rollout but she could to the policy. So I would argue that if it is rolled out there be some reconsideration of the cumbersomeness of the government's model--
Bloc
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
You were not consulted. Had the $40 million been given to the provinces, you would have had something to say about it, because the money would have been available to the organizations concerned.
Do you not find it unusual that there are unused funds whereas the needs you spoke of exist and that it is only after the fact that it is realized that the funds were available? Is that normal?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Just a quick response, Ms. Hunter. We're over time, but a response would be great.
Bloc
Executive Director, Canadian Co-operative Association
I'm not sure. I'm not sure I understood the question, to be honest. I would say the province didn't have the money yet, so there was no money--
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
It is very short, Madam. Is it normal that the funds were not used whereas the needs existed and the funds were available, yes or no?
Executive Director, Canadian Co-operative Association
It's abnormal to have a national program that's not rolled out across the country, if it's called national.