Human Resources Committee on June 8th, 2006

[Andrew Treusch]

Yes, we'll turn to Mr. Atherton for those employment insurance data.

Quickly, on your first remarks about literacy, it's essentially correct that Canada's literacy results have not markedly changed in a decade. I can confirm that.

With respect to underemployment, I won't be able to give you an answer that does justice to it, but there is a great deal of information on it. There are many aspects to your question.

There is often a mismatch between the skills and the experience of the individual and their employment. For example, you will find people with higher educational credentials than needed for the employment they are doing. That's one example of a mismatch. And there are many reasons for it. As always in life, there is not one simple issue there. Sometimes the mismatches are regional, sometimes it's the individual's choice because they've changed their field, and sometimes it's poor performance of the labour market.

Underemployment, in the sense of those who have part-time employment, is in most cases voluntary. Most part-time employees are part-time because they choose to be. They're balancing home and work, or they're students balancing study and work. But part of part-time employment is involuntary. They are individuals who would rather have a full-time job.

There is also precarious employment. A growing phenomenon, of course, is to have contract employment or temporary employment, and some of those individuals obviously would prefer the greater stability or certainty of a permanent job or some of the other benefits that go with permanent employment. But in the modern economy we are seeing much more temporary employment as a phenomenon.

There is a great deal of information on these various subjects, Ms. Savoie.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Atherton, may we have your response very quickly?

[John Atherton]

The number you were looking for can be found in the monitoring and assessment report. It's $18.513 billion for the contributions, total premiums paid. It's $2.1 billion for active measures.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

For training?

[John Atherton]

For training. Now, the only caution I'll make on that is that the data for contributions comes from CCRA, so it lags a little bit. That data I gave you is from 2003.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

So out of $18 billion roughly...?

[John Atherton]

About 10% would be your number. It's in and around 10% of the premiums paid.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay, we're going to move on to the last questioner of this round. I believe that we have Mr. Storseth, and he's going to share his time with Mr. Jean.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I would like a copy of the report that was mentioned by Mr. Treusch.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Yes, I believe they're going to table that. I believe we're going to table the report to the whole committee. So we'll make sure we get that out to everybody.

Mr. Storseth, seven minutes.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was actually going to let Mr. Jean go first.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Well, that's okay. That's your prerogative.

Go ahead then, Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you very much to my colleague.

I'm from northern Alberta, and I can tell you that I find it very disturbing when I hear cases from Mr. D'Amours and Mr. Lessard in relation to the portion of the population that is unemployed.

I don't understand. When I can't find employees for my own businesses, and nobody in northern Alberta can find employees, so we go across to China, South America, and the United Kingdom and fly these people in by the thousands, which is intended to happen by 2015 or 2020.... Fifty per cent of our workforce there is going to be retired by 2017, and we have people in the rest of Canada who are unemployed.

What are we doing to send them, either temporarily or permanently, across the country instead of around the world, to get them into northern Alberta to keep the economy going and to send money back to the places that need it the most? And I'm not talking about unemployment insurance; I'm talking about good wages, $80,000 or $120,000 a year.

[Andrew Treusch]

Thank you for the question.

I think that is a very timely reminder of the balances that we need to see in our labour market. That's what I was trying to allude to, sir, in my opening remarks, in fact, we have a labour market now that is creating hundreds of thousands of jobs. We have employers who are really looking for skilled workers, and the labour market adjusts. It means that they will provide the financial incentives and pay and other things to make employment worthwhile.

So it's quite important, first, that we have very good labour market information available to individuals so that they're aware of these opportunities. It's very important that my department, Human Resources, work very closely with employers so that we have the best understanding of their needs and requirements, that we can use that. We have a whole workplace strategy that's predicated on this department getting close to employers. We have sector councils so that we can make those partnerships. One of the most dynamic ones that we're most focused on is the energy sector and their requirements. I know my deputy minister will be flying out there in a month or so to meet on the ground with some of the people involved in that agency.

We have to balance. We see this labour market as an opportunity to provide gainful employment for all those disadvantaged groups in Canada that have been left behind in the past. This is a real opportunity for us. Insofar as we cannot meet demand with domestic employment, then of course the immigration system is also part of it, and we are working with the Province of Alberta and the energy sector as well on entry there--in particular, the temporary foreign worker program.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Division 8 is an issue, and it's an issue for most of the unions in my area, as well as all of the employees. We're bringing in thousands of people from outside of the country to take these $100,000-a-year jobs. And they're taking the money back. They're not spending it here. They're not providing any benefit. I am quite disturbed by it. I don't know how you're communicating these opportunities to other areas of Canada that have high unemployment, but I've looked at the unemployment rates and I find it discouraging, because I don't see how you're communicating it, first of all.

Second, is there any type of strategy for temporary or permanent employees to be sent over? We have many seasonal workers. Mr. D'Amours in fact alluded to that. In northern Alberta you get $20 to $25 an hour to wrap subs in a sub shop. I can't keep employees in any of my businesses. Three or four years ago I had 70 or 80 employees for the businesses; today I have 20 or 25. And I'm shut down most days because I don't have people working.

We have people all over Canada--in Quebec and eastern Canada--who want jobs. They want to come out to western Canada to work, but they have no way to get there and there's no communication strategy that I can see to do that. It's obviously an issue.

[Andrew Treusch]

Yes.

Mr. Chair, I do first want to assure the member with respect to the temporary foreign workers program that the first requirement of our department, in processing that, is to assure ourselves that the employer has made every effort to offer the job to a Canadian. They have to advertise it; they have to look at the local market first. That is a requirement. It's not just an open door. There is a labour market test.

Secondly, I also want to assure you as well that the market is adjusting. I'm looking here at Statistics Canada data. As of January 1 of this year, Alberta has gained a population of 25,100. This is a record high for the fourth quarter. Of that 25,000 gain, 17,000 was from net interprovincial migration, also an in-time high.

So the labour market is working. I know last time there was quite a bit of discussion in the committee about mobility and the phenomenon of mobility in the Canadian labour market. It's a big country. There are long distances. People have ties--family ties, ties to their community. There are language barriers. So it's a big decision for people to make.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I understand, and I'm sorry to cut you off. I've one more comment.

No disrespect, sir, but it's not working. We don't need 25,000 people, we 250,000 people. And I want them from the rest of Canada. I don't want them from around the world unless they're going to be here permanently. That's what I want. I've only been there 40 years. I've seen the town grow from 1,800 to 75,000 people in the last 40 years, pretty much, and quite frankly, we need to make some changes. I think some sort of transportation strategy available to the people who are unemployed in the rest of Canada should be looked at. I think that would be a very encouraged comment from here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You have thirty seconds left.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Did I take all seven minutes, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You did.

We'll get you next time, Mr. Storseth.

We'll move on to the second round of five minutes each. Starting that off for us will be Mr. D'Amours.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, let me tell you that it is probably not due to a lack of respect that my colleague opposite said what he did, but he needs to come to our regions in order to understand our needs. It's certainly not by uprooting people from one region and placing them in another that we're going to help Canada as a whole. Canada is a vast country. It's unbelievable, I am really taken aback by such comments as have been made this morning. Just thinking that way is a problem in itself.

The problem in Atlantic Canada and in my riding is not an unemployment problem, but an employment problem. If we got a bit of help, we would be able people create jobs. Uprooting somebody, and telling him to leave his family and go to another region, is not a solution. People want to live with their families. That's more or less like the Acadian deportation. I just can't get over the fact that you think like that!

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

On a point of order. It wasn't quite meant like that.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

It's unbelievable that someone would think that way. I said my piece. I hope the Conservatives no longer think along those lines.

Mr. Atherton, I'd like to come back to a point you raised a little earlier. It was in reference to the Toronto region. You talked about the medical side of things and eliminating the two-week waiting period for people working in the tourism and hotel industries in the Toronto region. Was there really a medical issue or were there simply temporary layoffs as a result of a drop in clientele, just like in my region? Because the fact is, there are temporary layoffs in our regions because of seasonal fluctuations. If the two-week waiting period was scrapped because of temporary layoffs for these people, then logic would dictate the same should be done for us.