Human Resources Committee on Feb. 28th, 2007

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to come back to what Mr. Kyle and Mr. Arango said about stress.

We spoke earlier about the stress placed on the family when someone is ill. If the illness is serious, the person who is ill faces stress, and so does the entire family.

Are you in a position to say whether extending benefits to 50 weeks will reduce the level of stress, not only for the employee, but for the person who is ill and the entire family? Am I wrong to say that this affects more than just the employee who is given extended leave?

[Manuel Arango]

Yes. Stress would invariably be reduced for the family and for the person. If you extend it to 50 weeks you would bridge the time between treatment and illness and the time you get CPP disability.

You can imagine going 30 weeks or so without income and having to depend on welfare. That's going to create a huge stress for a family, for the individual, cause more illness and a downward spiral of sorts for the individual and for the family.

Covering that gap from illness to the time you could potentially get CPP disability is make-or-break for a lot of people.

[Kenneth Kyle]

I would certainly concur with that. I don't have a specific study, but it is just common sense, as Mr. Arango said, that you would relieve stress not only on the individual but the whole family who was suffering.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you. I have no further questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Lessard.

We'll move to Mr. Godin. Four minutes, please.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Lake indicated that employment insurance may not be the best system for that, and that perhaps it should come under the Canada Pension Plan. As far as I know, the Canada Pension Plan is paid for by the employer and the employee, just as employment insurance is paid for by the employer and the employee. We must simply determine in which system the money should be placed.

The problem is that the Canada Pension Plan might pay $840, while employment insurance, if the individual earns the maximum salary, could pay up to $1,720 a month for the period they are ill, have cancer or suffer a stroke. For instance, an MP would receive about $7,000 a month. We can see the difference. This does not constitute abuse. The idea is for people to be given a minimum. I put forward the idea of the Canada Pension Plan. I do not know if Mr. Lake was listening, but I suggested that perhaps this should come under the Canada Pension Plan. However, the Canada Pension Plan is paid for by employees and workers, while employment insurance is paid by employers and employees. The government does not put in any money. The money belongs to taxpayers.

Do you agree with me that it makes no difference if we replace one with the other, apart from the fact that the Canada Pension Plan pays less than the other system?

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I see where HRDC is the fit. I guess that's what you're asking. Why is it a fit? It's because they pay into both systems. I think it's a fit because in a way HRDC is set up for workers and taking care of workers and that whole bridge. It's more dealing with that part, to keep them working in society. That's why I see it as a fit.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

No, no. The difference between the two, with all respect, is that with employment insurance you make an application, and if you have a doctor who certifies you are sick it's accepted automatically. With the Canada Pension Plan they pay doctors to say the client should not be paid. It doesn't take one year to get your Canada Pension Plan; it sometimes takes two years. That's the difference between the two.

Do you agree with that?

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Yes, and we don't want that.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Then you're agreeing with me.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I'm agreeing that we want a fast track.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

No, no. I'm sorry. Are you agreeing with me that the problem we have with the Canada Pension Plan is that we have sick people and it takes them two years to battle their sickness while at the same time battling to bring food home, and the plan is paying doctors to say no? I don't know how they could do it professionally, but that's what they do.

And here is a system you say fits the workers.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

That's right.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You have human resources. You go there with a doctor's slip and say, here, I need an operation—or, I have cancer, or, I have this—and then automatically, it goes down.

That's why it's the best program you could give to the working men and women who built this country.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

That's right, and I agree.

I want to add one little footnote. You mentioned the amount. When we did our research, the average claim was $285 a week. There's not big money being claimed here. It's $285 a week, as was already mentioned, and that gets them through this period.

I have a little correction, because Mr. Cuzner asked me a question about the percentages. There are 300,000 claims a year for sickness, but there are 95,000 that go the full 15 weeks.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I just wanted to be sure to use the highest number. Of course there are people making minimum wage. There are people earning $10 an hour. I used the highest number to demonstrate that it is not all that high, compared to what an MP would receive. It is simply to help the person who is ill. The company should show its employee some degree of compassion. All employers should do so, and so should colleagues.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

That's the reason it's $285, because the sad reality is that most of the working poor do not have coverage. That's the reality of it. Somebody asked, how much is it going to cost? Everybody thinks it's going to cost, but it's not going to cost a lot, because most of the working poor don't have coverage.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Eyking, I believe Mr. Lake has a quick comment, and then Mr. Preston will be asking you some questions.

You have four minutes, please.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

My comment is a clarification on the CPP disability idea. First, it's not a proposal I'm making, but more of a question or an idea for discussion.

Mr. Eyking made some comment or mentioned some challenges with CPP disability. I want to clarify that this is why we want to study it in this committee, and maybe we can address some of those issues.

I'll pass on to Joe Preston.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I was going to say the same thing. I'm not suggesting that CPP is where this should be either.

Mr. Godin, you told the same story as I could have, and most of us could have told, of someone coming into your office with those same types of difficulties. We must also look at some CPP changes. One of the changes might be the ability to bridge it down to meet the need, rather than accept that it takes a year and sometimes longer.

Mr. Eyking, again thank you very much for coming today.

Also thank you, Mr. Kyle and Mr. Arango. It's great to hear from both of your organizations.

The talk we had was about how we arrived at 50 weeks. Mr. Kyle, I think you said that it fits. It's about where we were, but we've gone from 15 to 50. Do we have any sort of a study that the reach is right, that 15 to 50 is right? I know you mentioned that it's against the maternity benefits or other ways.

[Manuel Arango]

As I mentioned, when you look at an age cohort of 15 to 45 years old for stroke victims, eight months is the median time. So some are going to fall on the other side; some are going to fall on the lower side. It seems kind of appropriate, because for CPP disability, I think doctors often approve it if the person is going to be sick for more than one year. It seems like a good bridge.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Have we had any conversation with employers' groups? In your prelude you obviously mentioned some of the medical organizations and also a couple of the union groups. But have we had this discussion with any of the employers on where you're headed?

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I spoke to our local chamber of commerce, and they were very supportive, especially when I went public with what I was doing. I've had a lot of support, especially from small businesses that only have a couple of employees and don't have that coverage. We've had a lot of support from the local chamber of commerce and similar groups. You're talking about the employer's side, yes?

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Good. We're on that one.

You said that you've had some direct talk over at HRSD about the changes to EI, and I also have to agree with Mr. Godin on this. I don't think this is an area where we're going to find misuse. I'm not certain there's anybody out there who wants to be sick or injured in order to collect EI. We can all be pretty sure that this is the case.

I believe you said they were pretty happy to hear you're heading this way, because they actually bear the brunt of people saying it wasn't enough, or it wasn't long enough. Is that what you said?

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

All MPs here have the same thing. The first place people stop is the HRDC office, so that's their first refusal. Then they come to our office and we think, “What the hell are we going to do here now?” because sometimes their whole family comes into your office.

But the HRDC people have gone through this 15-week thing. They know how to do it, and they know who's out there. In this day and age with cancer, heart problems, and strokes, this is something that has to be put in place.

Back to Mr. Godin, there are no better gatekeepers to deal with this than the people in the HRDC office. CPP is a different animal. They're more—to tell you that you can't. These people don't need this stuff when they have cancer.