Human Resources Committee on March 27th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We're going to start, as we do, with the opposition, and we're going to have two five-minute rounds.

Ms. Dhalla, five minutes please.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you very much to all of our presenters. Thanks for taking the time to come forward to the committee and for providing us with some very valuable insight and information.

I have a couple of questions. Due to the time limitation, perhaps I'll just pose them, and then all of you can answer.

But first I have a question for you and your organization, Ms. Bose. I had a chance to glance briefly at your report on immigrant and visible minority women across the country, on some of the barriers they face. Probably all of my colleagues around the table here will know, as I've mentioned it quite frequently, that I think the issue of foreign credentials recognition really has to do with our country's future economic prosperity and productivity. You were exactly right, I think, to describe it as a brain waste. So many talented individuals come to Canada with these hopes, these dreams, and these aspirations only to find a significant number of frustrations and challenges.

One motion that was put forward in 2005 was for the creation of a foreign credential recognition secretariat that would be able to combine all 17 different government departments under one roof, to ensure the proper focus and mandate in order to reach out to some of these new immigrants, to ensure that their credentials would be recognized, to ensure that they would be accredited, and that, most importantly, they would be integrated into our workforce.

So the secretariat was implemented, and then we went into an election campaign. Unfortunately, with the change and so forth, the Conservatives, who had said they would actually create an agency...but this is a non-partisan issue, really, in that it affects many Canadians.

As you mentioned in your speech, there hasn't been the creation of this particular agency. I wanted to get your perspective, or your organization's perspective, on what you think the mandate or governance or infrastructure of an agency like this should look like in order to benefit the kind of people you're talking about.

Secondly, to all of the witnesses here, we are doing an employability study. If you were to make one recommendation for us to incorporate and put forward, one recommendation for the government to be able to take action to ensure that we reduce the barriers for individuals to get employed in Canada, what would it be?

[Dr. Anuradha Bose]

It's a very tall order, Dr. Dhalla, for me to set up the governance structures of a government agency, even though I do have a PhD in public administration from the U.K.

I think the issue of credentials has become a political football between the provinces and the federal government. The credentials agency, when it was first announced, was an extremely ambitious measure. Bringing together provinces and self-regulating bodies is somewhat like herding cats. In my humble opinion, an agency, in order to be effective at the federal level, has to be a coordinating body, not a pathfinding agency. Many groups, not-for-profit mainly, are already doing this kind of pathfinding work. The National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada would like to see their work enhanced through better funding mechanisms of the federal government. We have a track record of delivering services both effectively and efficiently, of providing value for money.

The one recommendation, if you ask us to make one, would be to get this coordinating function off the ground ASAP, before we see reverse migration. As you're probably aware from your ridings, there are definitely people from the subcontinent, especially India and China, who are going back to their countries of origin because their abilities would be better put to use there.

Thank you.

[Louis Buschman]

I can't necessarily speak for visible minority groups, but for people with disabilities, I can make one main recommendation--namely, that we create a task force or national round table to convene all stakeholders in order to discuss the barriers and look at streamlining the various legislations across legislative boundaries as well as between departments. You have Statistics Canada, the Canada Pension Plan, HRSDC, the labour department, and a variety of other departments--federal, provincial, territorial--that need to harmonize their programs.

That would be the major recommendation I would make.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

That's all the time we have, Ms. Dhalla.

We're going to move to our next questioner.

Mr. Lessard, for five minutes, please.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here this morning to deliver their messages and their thoughts on this important matter of employability in Canada.

I'd like to start with the Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions. I was surprised to hear in your presentation that you expect more leadership from the federal government, when health care is a provincial area of jurisdiction. As union leaders, you must be aware of the fact that over the years the federal government has cut back on its support for provincial programs. According to the rules, 25% of transfer payments were to be allocated to supporting programs, but after the cutbacks, specifically between 1993 and 1997, support dropped to 15%. At the moment federal support stands at 17.5% approximately, which has brought pressure to bear on the provinces, and they in turn had to cut back in the health care field. So, this is the end result.

The other issue is the lack of vision of various governments with respect to our aging population. That also increases the pressure on the health care system.

Third, there were two levels of cuts: by cutting support services, maintenance, etc., the government contributed to increasing pressure on nurses because support services often serve to support nurses. My analysis of the matter leads me to believe that that is what caused many nurses to leave Canada to go elsewhere, like Europe. Indeed, several Quebec nurses went to Switzerland, Belgium, France. From other parts of Canada, nurses left for the United States. You mentioned that, in fact.

I would like to understand why you are once again turning to the federal government when it doesn't seem as though that is where the solution lies.

Moreover, you refer to nurses leaving the profession, but it isn't only because they are retiring. How could we encourage the nurses that have left to come back?

[Linda Silas]

You're very well informed, Mr. Lessard.

To answer your question as to how the federal government could ensure a stable workforce in the field of health care and in the nursing profession, our solution would be to support employers. It's not about discussing federal or provincial management of health care. The provinces do manage health care systems, but the federal government, despite the programs at Human Resources and Social Development Canada, one of the federal government's largest departments, never gets involved in health care. Nurses are not entitled to employment insurance, except when they are about to give birth.

So, there are ways to assess these funds and to hand them to employers so they can establish strategies for the retention of nurses and health care professionals, to create healthier workplaces as well. As health care workers we work in the most unhealthy environments. We have the highest rate of illness, penalties, etc.

So we have to help local employers by providing them with various programs so they can have the resources to compensate for these weaknesses and address the problems such as staff retention.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I understand what you are saying, but are we not fooling ourselves to some extent?

You have touched on an important aspect, because in the area of health care, to everyone's surprise you have one of the highest rates of accidents and occupational illnesses. As far as needlestick injuries are concerned, you said the level is 50%. There are backaches, etc.

There is another phenomenon that is happening in Quebec, but I have also been able to see it elsewhere. In several areas where there is a doctor shortage, nurses are agreeing to carry out medical procedures that would have been carried out by doctors in the past. This is being done.

What do you think of that? In fact, this will increase the burden and the pressure that nurses are under. I understand that it would be interesting professionally speaking. I believe that this should be done to help doctors. Therefore, there is pressure from both sides.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're out of time, so just a quick response would be great, Ms. Silas.

[Linda Silas]

The answer is simple: it is yes and no. The change is not so easily made, and nurses are also clled on to perform other tasks that rightly belong to other health care professions. We really must consider solutions. That is why we asked Mr. Allison to make a presentation before the committee. We have blamed all governments for all problems in health care over the last decades. Now, we are speaking to all levels of government in order to find solutions, and that includes the federal government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Madame Savoie, for five minutes, please.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

You spoke, Mr. Davis, about your association's role in one-stop shopping for evaluations and certification. Just to address some of the issues that we've raised in terms of underemployment of professional workers who come to Canada, there seems to be a big gap in the pre-migration stage. I'm wondering if you see a role for associations. How do you bridge that gap in order to overcome some of the problems that result?

[Kurt Davis]

That's a key concern in this whole process. We want to make sure that the people who make the decision to come to Canada to work in our profession know and understand what the process is. From that perspective, we've had our information available on the Internet for in excess of eight years now, I believe.

We have been continually improving our communications resources. From that perspective, we're linked to a lot of the settlement organizations across Canada, as well as to the different levels of the federal government, to try to make sure that the people have the link to the professional society. We also get a number of contacts through our membership in our international association.

What could we do to improve it? On our future wish list of things we'd like to see, we have a possible pre-evaluation tool that could be done online. The individual could take a challenge test that is similar to the competency-based exams that we use now. The test would not use the same questions, because those are a protected pool, but it would allow them to be evaluated online and have the computer help them in making that decision.

Are they ready to come to Canada? Do they have some gaps? We find that the profession is practised so differently in various parts of the world that they may be missing a key component when they come here, and they can start working on that component at home.

We do allow our evaluation process to start offshore. They can start submitting their documentation, go to their local university and get the university to send their paperwork. Once they've already come to Canada, there are huge delays for the immigrants to initiate that process, but we do require the documents to be submitted from the initial organization. We're doing a lot of photocopying.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Rose or Ms. Pobric, would you like to answer the question?

[Mirjana Pobric, Project Coordinator, National Organization of Immigrant and Visible Minority Women of Canada]

I will take this question.

In our recently finished discussion project, we had a broad discussion with employers and our immigrant women. We are obviously gender-focused. We were glad to hear that we both face the same obstacles and barriers related to immigrants' full integration into the Canadian labour force.

From a new Canadian's perspective, both personal and in terms of many of my immigrant friends, we don't want to lower any standards. We appreciate this country for what it is. That's why we have chosen this country. But some barriers today often are of the “either my way or no way” kind.

Here's an example of the barriers that we face. I had my blood tested in my country of origin, I had it tested through regular checkups in Italy, and I had it tested here. I mean, somebody did it, and not just anyone; there are people who are qualified. So sometimes we face barriers that are put in place by regulatory bodies to preserve, let's say, the privilege or exclusive status of certain professions. They are not really there to ensure that standards are met. That's where I see the problem related to recognition of foreign credentials.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

So how do we resolve that? There are professional associations, and there is the problem that you mentioned. There is a need to ensure certain standards, but there is also a need to open our doors so that we're not being overly restrictive.

Where does the responsibility lie? We're hearing that the certification agency that the Conservatives talked about is turning into just a referral agency, so it's not really addressing the key issues of certification.

[Mirjana Pobric]

The first step that needs to be done is having the assessment of competencies done at the pre-immigration stage. It is really useless, it's a waste to wait for people to come here and then start doing it. It's also being fair towards potential immigrants so that they can make their informed decision on what they have to go through if they decide to move. It has to be done in the very early stage of pre-immigration, because it's useless to do it before you get your landed immigrant visa. Already a lot of money has been spent, personally. It's a financial burden.

[Kurt Davis]

We've found great success with bridging programs as well. I can't say enough positive about bridging programs. They yield the results we need. We need all these folks who are coming knocking on our door. We really can't afford not to get them through the system. We're very short.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lake, five minutes please.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I want to start by thanking you all for coming today.

Ms. Pobric, you make a great point about assessment before people come here. That's a point I've been trying to make when I'm dealing with the frustration of people who just wish that someone would have told them before they came here. It's a significant issue.

Actually, I'd start by thanking all of your organizations. Across the board, it seems there's a real recognition of the need to just do better. When we're talking about a foreign credential referral office, it's interesting. We've had two sessions today and many different views, different ideas, on how we can improve the system.

I think that highlights a bit, Ms. Bose, what you were talking a bit about, the foreign credential referral office and maybe some concerns that you have. But I'd point out that much of the vision of that office is based on input from stakeholders, and of course there's such a variety of different ideas. Many of those stakeholders have identified that this referral office is a significant step forward. For example, the Canadian Council of Chief Executives talks about the constructive measures to do with temporary foreign workers programs and the referral office. The Canadian Council of Professional Engineers was very pleased with the creation of the referral agency. I want to focus on the fact that we talk about information sharing, and pathfinding, and referral, and one of the things that have been identified is this lack of information transfer and sharing that you talk about.

I would argue that the coordination.... I'm not sure, the way that you're using the term might be different from the way I would envision it, but I believe there needs to be a coordination with all of these different stakeholders. The whole point of the referral office is to be able to talk to people coming from other countries, or talk to people once they get here, and be able to have a central place to intake and then refer to the various stakeholders they need to talk to. That's one of the challenges. People don't even know where to turn. So this is a step forward.

Ms. Dhalla talked about her concerns and talked about a motion that was brought forward at the last second before the election in 2005--or June, I guess, so it was five months before the election. I would remind Ms. Dhalla that after 12 years, most of which was in majority government, many of the people in my riding had concerns that nothing had actually happened over the course of those 12 years. We had fallen so far behind that it's going to take a long time to overcome those years of neglect. I guess that's more of a statement than it is a question.

Mr. Davis, I want you to comment. Specifically with your organization, what does the referral office mean to you? How important is it in terms of the problems you've talked about?

[Kurt Davis]

A couple of key things come to mind. The first would be a central information resource where our representatives who are doing this intake overseas could get consistent and reliable information. We find that often the people who are advising immigrants in various different countries around the world don't have access to all the information that they really, truly need. They need that resource overseas. They're doing their best job with what they have available, but they can't search the many different professions and find that information. They need a central place for it.

Secondly, I'd see it as a place where best practices can be shared, and where information conveyance can happen, and where there can be some true sharing of resources. I don't want to see reinventing the wheel. We've been doing this process since 1999. We have a good process. It's been externally validated. I would be very reluctant to see somebody else come in and take it over and say, this is what we're going to do for you, because I'm not sure that's going to be the best thing for the profession.

So let's not reinvent any wheels. Let's share resources and get the best value for our dollar.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I think that's what we've heard time and time again from the stakeholders on this issue.

I want to turn for a second to Ms. Silas. One of the things you talked about was this full-time versus part-time ratio. I know many people who are nurses, who are friends of mine, and many of them work part-time. They work maybe different hours, but they actually like that. It offers them some flexibility in their family schedules and things like that, so it's something they've chosen.

As part of your research, have you done any work on finding out what percentage of your members actually want to be working part-time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's almost the time, but I'll let you finish up that question.

[Linda Silas]

On that issue, I'm not a very popular labour leader, because I ask my membership if they would still want a part-time job if the overtime wasn't there. We spend 18 million hours in overtime--that's 10,000 full-time jobs. One in five nurses works at more than one job, so they have more than one part-time job.

Different provinces have done different work. Manitoba, for example, looked at the 70% recommended for full-time--and that's management's 70%; that's to have a stable workforce. Health care doesn't have it. In your province, for example, it's down to a 36% full-time rate. Can you imagine your office with 36% full-time workers? And you in Alberta have one of the highest levels of overtime, both paid and unpaid. So it is quite scary.

To come back to Manitoba, they've realized from their surveys of nurses and employers that they need 67%. They're gearing up for a 67% full-time ratio. New Brunswick, my home province, is now up to 72%, because they needed to attract young nurses. Young nurses said they needed full-time jobs, and if they didn't get them, they would move to Nova Scotia to get them. So they're up to 72%. They have no casual workers, only full-time and part-time.

Ask them the question: if there were no overtime tomorrow, would you live on half your salary?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll go to Mr. Merasty for five minutes, please.