Human Resources Committee on April 26th, 2007

[Christian Beaulieu]

This is due to the conventions that apply in the drafting of bills. At the Department of Justice, we standardize our practices, our terminology. However, this is a private member's bill which has not necessarily been drawn up in accordance with the conventions of the Department of Justice. I am therefore unable to provide you with an answer. However, I agree with you: in the French language, there is a difference between “devoir“ and “pouvoir“, may and shall. My interpretation is the same as yours, but I am unable to give you an explanation with regard to what is intended with the use of this term.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Without stating a view as to the intent, based upon your expertise as legal advisor, what does this term usually encompass in a bill?

[Christian Beaulieu]

Generally speaking, looking to case law, I have sometimes seen the term “peut“, and sometimes the term “doit“. And, as a rule, we would not even say “doit“, but rather “le ministre paie la province“. In my experience, we would usually see the expression “peut payer“. One rarely sees the imperative or directive form used in an act, even when the payment in question will imperatively be paid. I have always wondered why laws were drafted in this way.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Good. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Ms. Chow for five minutes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

In section 3 it says:The purpose of this Act is to establish criteria and conditions that must be met before a child care transfer payment

Some people are interpreting it as future transfer payment, others as existing transfer payment. Is there any benefit to saying that before an existing child care transfer payment may be made in support of the early learning and child care program....? Would it be clearer to say, so that there's no misunderstanding, that this bill in fact does not mandate the government to engage in spending any new funding or to be involved in an appropriation of some kind?

[Mark McCombs]

We're not really at liberty to give you advice with respect to how the bill should be redrafted in those terms. As justice counsel, we're not permitted to deal with those types of areas.

All I can say is that clarity in legislation is the best thing everyone could have.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Okay, thank you for that.

I'm not sure I should ask you this question, but you heard previously that somehow, if a program costs $9,000 per child care space, the government will pay 100% of the $9,000, which is a strange way to say that the parents wouldn't pay anything at all, that it's 100% free.

Does it actually say anywhere that all programs should be 100% free or that it should be costing $5 or $7, or $200 or $1,500, or $7,000 or $9,000, for that matter? Does it get into any of that discussion of how much a program should be or shouldn't be?

[Mark McCombs]

I don't think we saw that kind of detail.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

The advisory committee is established in a way that's really to provide some kind of transparency and accountability so that the general public and Parliament would know, if this is passed, that the $250 million that's spent on child care in fact is creating high-quality child care spaces, etc., whatever the amount might be, and that it would then advise the minister that the provinces are in fact delivering good-quality, accessible, and affordable child care spaces. That is really the concept of the advisory committee, and it's quite similar to what we have now under health care, that there's a health care advisory council.

Am I correct in that?

[Mark McCombs]

The legislation has the advisory committee mechanism. It also has a regulation-making authority, which could be used for a number of things. Advisory councils in general are quite common in the federal area. The department uses them fairly extensively, as do other departments.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

So it's not something that is different, but at this point, as far as child care is concerned, or early learning, they really don't have a body of this kind?

[Christian Beaulieu]

I think the officials from HRSDC would be in a better position to answer this.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Chow.

We're now going to move to our last questioner today.

Mr. Lake, you have five minutes, sir.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Actually, I guess my first question would be, right off the bat, regarding the witnesses that we have.

I think we have a child care branch of the human resources department, do we not? Is there a child care branch?

[Mark McCombs]

Yes, a family and children's branch.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Is there a reason we don't have witnesses from that branch? It would seem to make sense, when we're discussing child care legislation, that we would have witnesses from the child care branch. Is there any reason we don't?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You're looking at me?

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

It's a question for the people on the steering committee. Is that not something that...?

I don't have much say in who comes as witnesses. You guys on the steering committee make that decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That certainly would be a possibility. I guess, once again, that would be for the committee as a whole to decide.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay.

Moving on, then, we have a bit of a history of ad hoc legislation coming through this committee. We dealt with it on Bill C-257 and we dealt with it on the Bloc EI bill, and this strikes me as very similar. You made a comparison earlier to the Canada Health Act, and I'm wondering, compared to this legislation being brought up in quite a murky private member's bill, can you maybe compare that to...?

You know, how long did it take to negotiate the Canada Health Act? Do you have any idea? Was it a couple of weeks, or years and years maybe?

[Christian Beaulieu]

We were not involved.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay.

[Mark McCombs]

We have grey hair, but I don't think we were there.